Jest Out of Jurisdiction
Law Enforcement / First Responder stories and experiences with a focus on comedic blunders, events, and the lighter side of stressful jobs. Stories are firsthand accounts told by the hosts Flash and T-Dot with accompanying guest interviews.
Jest Out of Jurisdiction
Small-Town Secrets, Big-Time Security: Inside the Crystal Rogers Murder Trial
The Crystal Rogers murder case finally comes to a close as Brooks Houck faces justice in one of Kentucky's most high-profile criminal trials of the decade. Court Security Director Darren "Foot" Allen takes us behind the scenes of this remarkable case, revealing the extraordinary security measures implemented to protect everyone from witnesses to jurors to the prosecutor himself.
Blue lights from the dead of the night, lying on a run of dim street light, laughing through the written reports. Truth stranger than the wildest courts, tales from the force gone astray, caught up in the games they play. High speed chases gone awry. Serious turns into pie in the sky.
Speaker 2:Just out of jurisdictionisdiction podcast, we are back with you. We've got a full table tonight.
Speaker 3:This is fun, our repeat, but we have our new business manager sitting in with us, or she's taking over, basically on everything we like it yeah, we're what we want, as you can tell by the the lapse in time, we're not good at scheduling so we've gotten busy and now we have a scheduler or our manager and she's with us tonight.
Speaker 2:We're going to have handlers. We're not adult enough to do this on our own.
Speaker 3:We have Karen with us tonight. Say hello. You've got to at least say hi and talk to her Hello. She is taking over. She's going to help us out tremendously, whether you like it or not.
Speaker 4:Exactly she's going to help us out tremendously, whether you like it or not.
Speaker 3:Exactly she's already helped us, but she's not coming from a background that she's not involved in law enforcement or emergencies. She dispatched for years. That's when I first met her at the Laurel Dispatch Center and just always enjoyed working with you. It was fun, especially those nights. So we're honored to have you here and then keeping us straight. That's the goal. I don't know if you can, but she's got her hands full. All I was focusing on one spot at this table. We got hands full.
Speaker 5:I'm not saying anything, though he focusing on one spot at this table.
Speaker 3:We got Doug back.
Speaker 5:I'm not saying anything, though he will.
Speaker 2:He says that every time and then ends up talking a bunch.
Speaker 5:Oh, I won't, did not.
Speaker 2:We'll see, all ears, we'll see.
Speaker 5:Yeah, all ears, we'll see, we'll see.
Speaker 2:So Doug's back with us and, of course, the man of the hour, we've got Foot back with us.
Speaker 3:We've got Foot back with us. Good to be here. Yes, I've used that dangerous gentleman and then I found out that there is a guy and you probably heard of him. He's that Victor Marks guy. Yeah, he's got a Bible study called Dangerous Gentleman, really, and I'm going to start reading it. Yeah, that guy's good man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's the quickest disarmed guy study called dangerous gentleman really, and I'm gonna start yeah guys, good man, he's that quickest.
Speaker 3:Yeah, this arm guy, but I've met him twice, one time in London and one time at a conference in Cleveland. I was at, yeah, and but he's got that. I saw man. I said you should have coined that or copyrighted that.
Speaker 5:Tell, afraid but it was like man, what a cool scene.
Speaker 3:I loved it. And then to see, I was just I guess I was on YouTube or something and then saw him on there. I listened to his podcast a lot and I was like dangerous gentleman. Alright, there it is again so.
Speaker 1:I loved it, we'll give credit to him.
Speaker 3:I'm an old dummy.
Speaker 1:I can't come up with nothing like it.
Speaker 2:So what we got? So today's episode, something that's a little more current than most of our old war stories. If anybody's been following the Crystal Rogers case- let's go back Now, back in 2020 when the Bardstown podcast came out.
Speaker 3:Bardstown came out. It may have came out a little bit before, that's when I started listening to it that's the only thing that got me through COVID we would sit down in the, in the building down at the London PD, and five or six of us just listened to that podcast, you know, because that's all we had to do, and it started out with Jason Ellis' murder.
Speaker 3:And you know, jason Ellis went to Cumberland. You know University of Cumberland was down here and a good friend of mine was his roommate and played baseball with him. So when that happened, I mean my buddy Wynn was just tore up and just you know. So that was just such a crazy time, you know, and kind of vulnerable time, because he was like man, how many times have I got out on getting debris out of the roadway? Sure, I mean, how many different things you don't think about how dangerous and how some people just want to hurt us, and one of the saddest things I've ever seen. And then how it not just affected Bardstown, that surrounding area up there, but really hit Williamsburg and even folks here in London. So it was that people don't understand that sometimes how something happens somewhere that affects you know so many, and I remember, you know then we've had other officers, you know, get killed like that. But that one was just such a mystery and I remember talking to someone it happened in what?
Speaker 2:2013? It was 2012. 2012 was when it actually occurred Somewhere in that time frame.
Speaker 3:I remember a detective that was. I was up there right after at a DARE conference or a safe schools conference and one of the detectives with KSP was telling me, like they were doing some kind of study about owls and they had video. They could hear that shotgun blast going off on those things, that's true. And there was a witness that came out and said, well, I got out and moved, had video. They could hear that shotgun blast going off on those things, that's true. And there was a witness that came out and said, well, I got to move that debris, really.
Speaker 2:And somebody moved it back.
Speaker 3:Somebody moved it and then obviously they moved it back to get him. So that's how they actually it wasn't just for who came, Anybody coming up there, any passerby moving that. It was specifically a trap for a.
Speaker 3:It was a specific plan yeah, set up well in advance, likely by someone who's very good at planning, and I feel like I got to know the investigators in this. I know the prosecutor and I don't want to get ahead here and say something inappropriate, but I feel like there will be some arrests down the road about that one. I feel like, and I feel like there will be some arrests on the Tommy Ballard murder yeah, crystal's dad, yeah, so I just got a lot of confidence in those people and I know they're working right now so we'll see what happens. Yeah, I really recommend everybody that's not listening to that podcast the Bardstown podcast, I think Vault.
Speaker 2:Studios is. Who does it? Is it the Shea McAllister? That is Shea McAllister, I get to meet her during this trial.
Speaker 3:She is truly a quality lady, great journalist. I kind of lost faith in journalism, honestly, but I have to say she's a quality lady. She was there every day and I've watched what she's reported on so I know the accuracy of it. But you're right, the way she wrote that podcast, you know, and the way she would talk, it was captivating, yeah it was, and Dylan's probably right During a time of COVID where we're all kind of locked in places and listening for stuff.
Speaker 3:Yeah, she was. Sheldon Couch was kind of a household name yeah, it was many nights.
Speaker 2:I can't wait for an update.
Speaker 3:I'm sure she'll do an update on the trial. Well, I asked her. I said are you going to write a book? And she said I'm thinking about it she didn't say I know she's not with WHAS anymore. She stepped out and said she's going to devote more time to family.
Speaker 2:That was recently I know she did. She did the Barstown podcast and then when they done the actual search warrants she did back to. Barstown, but then there was no update after that, because searches weren't conclusive.
Speaker 3:So we started with Jason. I know talking about that, but Barstown had a series of crazy events that happened yeah, a couple, you know if you've listened to the podcast or whatever and that's really how. I knew about it and you know a mother and daughter were killed, seems like right after that.
Speaker 1:I'm not home invasion, maybe in 14. I'm not sure. I don't want to give a wrong timeline, yeah and I don't know what Zach ordered.
Speaker 3:So I for Jason's and then Crystal's disappearance in 2015 so. I think that was the order, and then her dad that's the right order you had.
Speaker 2:Jason's, because I just re-listened to that podcast the other day but you had. Jason's murder, and then, not long after that, you had the home invasion, and then with the two murders, and then you had Crystal went missing and then her dad was murdered, and Bardstown might be one of the prettiest little cities in Kentucky.
Speaker 3:It is.
Speaker 4:I think, it was actually named that.
Speaker 3:I would put them, and up there in Odom County that the Grange with the train going through it is two of the coolest, quaintest towns around.
Speaker 1:So, to see that happen in there in those small towns is crazy.
Speaker 3:Well ironically enough, a guy, I guess, hit the courthouse today not the judicial center, but the courthouse in downtown Bardstown vehicle versus building and he died from it. So the higher rate of speed is what I'm told, but that's like the second time this year. Knox County, if you remember back in January a kid ran his car into the building. So I mean, I don't know what it is with vehicle versus buildings now. Buildings and squares.
Speaker 5:I guess we're not used to that. It's not going to stay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Bardstown's had more than its fair share of activity for certain.
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Speaker 3:So, chris, let's get into the. Tell us why you're back. This is going to be a good one. Well, I joined. My job is I'm a head of security for administrative office of the courts and part of what I do is provide security for the seven Supreme Court justices, our 14 Court of Appeal judges, and then I monitor the security of the other 260 district, family and circuit judges across the Commonwealth and I work with the sheriff on that. It's certainly not a job I do by myself Kudos to my sheriffs for helping me with that and of course they hire and manage the personnel that provides security for our courthouses. But part of what we do is we step in high-profile, high-risk trials and we assist. We don't come in to take over. Let me stay right at the start.
Speaker 3:Warren County Sheriff's Department likely and honestly didn't even need us Right, but there were some factors about that case that I knew going in and I talked with the judge about it Judge Charles Sims, he's a native of Bardstown, just a true gentleman, and he and I talked about it. There were about 18 witnesses for the Steve Lawson trial. That one started end of May, first of June, somewhere around in that time frame, and Steve was one of the work hands for Brooks Howell and the charge was conspiracy and tampering with evidence. When Steve actually confessed that he and his son Joey moved Crystal's car and there was a flat tire on the way on the parkway and of course he actually confessed to helping move the car and moving the seat forward in an attempt to deceive investigators, the jury found him guilty pretty quick. But anyway, the reason I'm involved is we work with the Sheriff's Department because there were 17 witnesses on that one and there were 40 witnesses in the Brooks-Hout trial. So I didn't want any witness tampering, I didn't want any.
Speaker 3:You know, I worried about the witnesses. I mean, obviously, you know we've already talked about maybe some murders that potentially could be connected to this. Somebody shot Tommy Ballard we don't know why, but it's easy to assume that it was connected because he was meddling around trying to figure out who killed his daughter. He may have found too much, yeah, meddling around trying to figure out who killed his dog, digging out, and may have found too much, yeah. So you know, I thought of every possible security scenario that I could and I tried to have a contingency for that. I mean, you know, you guys have been supervisors, you know? Yeah, I laid awake at night thinking what could go wrong and what will I do about it. But it ain't about me. I didn't come here to talk about me. But anyway, we worked with the Sheriff's Department.
Speaker 1:So I got moved down to Warren County.
Speaker 3:Yeah, change of venue Good point Got moved from Bardstown to Bowling Green, about an hour south, and I don't want to talk about anybody, but I didn't know this until I went to the trial the Commonwealth attorney in Nelson County. At that time he felt like in order to prosecute for murder, there should be a body, a crime scene or a murder weapon. He didn't have any of those in his case, so that's kind of why the case went stale. Uh, it wasn't just that there wasn't evidence there, it was just that there was a lot of circumstantial evidence that didn't have those factors. So he didn't really want to push it.
Speaker 3:So anyway, uh, the attorney general got involved and I don't know if it was daniel cameron or russell coleman, maybe a little bit of both, and they started sending, applying some resources, sent some investigators down shane young out of e-town, hardin county. He's a commonwealth attorney, they're outstanding, outstanding guy. I got nothing but respect for that guy and I'll tell you a little bit more as we go along about him. But he was the prosecutor and he said look, yeah, I'll take the case. So he took what he had. But there was some, I guess, some speculation. There had been some grand jury tampering in that.
Speaker 3:So I knew it wasn't beyond the players to possibly try to get in. So that was one thing that I talked to the judge about.
Speaker 1:I said, judge, I'd like for the identity of the jury because you know, even in a camera pan, the best you can do you're going to pan the jury and then somebody's going to reckon, oh, I know him.
Speaker 3:And then it just increased the risk of the jury and who they are and their identity to the public and it just makes it a little easier. Not saying that they would. But I wanted to be able to say my guys took control of the jury from the time they arrived every morning. We parked them in a designated area, we escorted them in the building, we got them to the jury room. Nobody from the public touched the jury and I was glad to say that. But anyway, that's just some of the things that we did. I mean, we weren't uniforms, we were out of the blue blazer. I look like Doug Thomas when I go to work.
Speaker 1:But anyway I was blessed.
Speaker 3:I can't even begin to say how handsome he is tonight. You're looking good Down to his fine way he's got that rough beard going on there.
Speaker 2:But anyway he's not going to say that he's worried.
Speaker 3:Oh, he will. We'll flip his switch here shortly, but anyway, I was honored. I was, you know, I was kind of working with Judge to make sure he was safe. We escorted him. He didn't want to let us drive him, so I made sure that we had somebody on him from the time he left the hotel to the time he got back. Uh, you know, we just we tried to again, uh, and then, and as the trial came to a conclusion, we can talk about that as we go. But there was a couple things that come up remind us here, director, to talk about that. I don't want to get the cart ahead of the horse, but some stuff, some stuff come up that that uh was concerning to me and and we had to increase our security around the commonwealth attorney and the judge, and but we had it drawn up every day watching the parking lot.
Speaker 3:You know warren county sheriff's office. I can't say enough how wonderful they did. But they, uh they. But they were at breaks Because I teach court security all across the state. I'll be in Bowling Green Monday.
Speaker 3:Ironically, talking to court security and in-service Sounds like they could probably go teach it. They could do it themselves. But anyway, they did an outstanding job. But they had it drone up before breaks. But what I was going to say we teach parking lots are where it happens at. Yes, all the parties show up where Parking lot Time you get in the building there's a little bit of security in the building, at the worst there's. But parking lots I teach guys, gals, keep an eye on your parking lots because that's where if it's going to go down, it's going to happen there.
Speaker 3:So that's why, on breaks and before the conclusion of each day, we had grown up watching looking anything out of the ordinary, any anomalies that stood out. So uh, it went. It went flawlessly. The only thing we had a jury during a sentencing. One of the jury members in the Hal Lawson second trial. She got sick. I think she was just overcome with emotion and she got sick. But I had a paramedic staged in the back hallway and I hooked them up and within minutes we had her back rolling. That's awesome, and so it worked out good.
Speaker 3:That's the things I don't always I wouldn't think of. This was a very high profile. Yeah, it was, because this has been going on now for 10 years. A little better than that, actually the 10-year anniversary of her disappearance occurred during the trial, right so, and it never ran cold. That's the thing about this. It wasn't like a cold case. It just sounds like a lot of investigations still continuing, but I never heard of this going like a cold case file or anything like that. It was just a. You know the Ballard family, crystal's mom and brother just sweet people, just good country people, yeah, and they kept it going. Her mom kept it going, you know, you all saw it. I mean the heroes welcome that. They got after that trial was over and they returned back to Bardstown. People lined up on the street that just doesn't happen.
Speaker 3:No, no, and you know so they're listen. I got to meet them. I mean, you know just good people and I hate what they've had to endure and you felt for them. You did this whole time and she didn't. I mean, in the podcast they did such a good job of connecting with the listeners. You know you're like, oh my gosh, the emotions. So when this all went to trial, finally, because every little bit it was such big news that Louisville we don't really get the Louisville news down here If it bleeds over something huge it will spill over, but a Bardstown murder will not hit London, kentucky, if it's not. You know, sometimes it will. But this one has reached all the updates and I've got FBI buddies that would be like, hey, we're heading to. You know, it was not such a big deal around and now I think it's even bigger. You know, I'm sure it's nationally recognized because the podcast was such a hit, but there's a lot of emotions, even for salty old guys like us of saying where's this justice at?
Speaker 3:Where is this going to happen? We all know who did this and we all know what probably happened. Maybe not everything that happened, but there was obviously foul play and just guilt. You know, of course, their defense was that the government wanted him arrested. I'm talking about Brooks. You know the government wanted him arrested.
Speaker 3:And listen, I respect Brian Butler. He was the head attorney for Brooks Houck. Houck spent about $2. Million dollars on his attorney team. I don't know if that's public knowledge, buti guess it is now. And then Steve Schroering. Schroering represented a couple of those police officers and the Breonna Taylor guy. So I mean they're the Brionna Taylor deal and they're just good men. You know they were hired to do a job and they did it. Their team, I mean you could tell they had planned it, articulated their defense and they did a good job. But I mean they're good people. But ultimately it is what it is and I think the jury saw through all that. The jury, honestly, we always joke that jurors I mean they get paid $12.50 a day. It's laughable, but we always joke that well, they'll stick around to get their free lunch.
Speaker 1:Because you know we always give in any trial.
Speaker 3:I've ever worked like that. You know we get them pizza. We start ordering pizza about 11 o'clock I think that jury was ready to come back before they ate their pizza. Wow, so well, I say pizza. They actually ate sandwiches that day. But anyway, it's a short day, let's just get to saying it. Listen.
Speaker 3:I'll say this. This is my opinion, my opinion only. I watched that jury and how quickly they came to that decision. I mean maybe four hours, wow. They came to that decision. I mean maybe four hours, wow.
Speaker 3:And on a circumstantial murder case, that just doesn't happen. They came back, they delivered it and I believe if they could have checked the box of death penalty, they'd have gave it to him. Now, that wasn't an option, right, but he ended up getting 20 years. He'll be eligible for parole. I'm sorry he got life, but he'll be eligible for parole. And I'm sorry he got life, but he'll be eligible for parole in 20 years.
Speaker 3:Okay, so I didn't know if the sentencing I had not. Sentencing is, uh, next month. Uh, judge sims wants us to come back down, but uh, but yeah, I mean there's, uh, there was an interesting case. I was thankful that I had it right there. Every day I tried to be judge sims personal bailiff and try to help him out with anything that I could, and and so we yeah, I mean it was good. Bowling green's a great place to have it because the city's kind of spread out. You got several motels for converging families and participants in the case.
Speaker 3:So I watched the media swarm. You know, um the family after, and they did a good job of just staying silent. I think it was the right thing not to make a statement at that time. Let the gravity of the whole situation just kind of play out. Sure, you know that they were probably.
Speaker 3:Well, there's a side story there. We told the media the trial happened on the fourth floor of the courthouse. We told the media if anybody wants to talk to you, we'll send them down to you. So go, stage up in the second floor district courtroom. Well, they went down there. Well, the jury said no, we don't want to. I usually tell them. I ask the jury members. I say any of y'all want to talk to the media? If you do get in the back of the line those of you that don't we will get you to your car and get you out of here. They said no, we don't want to talk to the media. So we got the jury out. Well then, here come the hack family. Hack family said we don't want to talk to the media. So I escorted rosemary and ronda, the sister, and, uh, rosemary's boy or rosemary's boyfriend, and we got them out the back door and about. By this time though the media, I guess thought we were and I, we really didn't.
Speaker 3:I mean, if anybody wouldn't want to talk to the media, we would have sent them down there, but none of them did. Even the defense team didn't want to, prosecutor didn't want to, so we got everybody out. Well, it came ballard's time to come out. The ballard family and that was, I guess. The media started smelling the mouth, so they were outside waiting and that's when you saw what they converged on us and you know, and, and colby the deputy down there, he kind of had to yell at lee seriously, for 18 days you saw me laughing because I was chuckling at colby, because colby's a good fellow.
Speaker 3:I know it pained him to do that, but yeah, he's like get back and his hateful dog voice, but yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, he kind of got up.
Speaker 5:Lee was encroaching in the group there.
Speaker 3:She didn't need to do that, but I'm sure she got caught up in the emotion.
Speaker 1:It was kind of historic They've been covering this.
Speaker 3:Yeah, in a big event like that and you finally feel like, hey, there's a conclusion here, there's some justice that's been done, and everybody gets wrapped up in that, I get it. I get it, I don't blame them. And you know we was talking about defense, I remember finally thinking you know, they've got their job. I can't personally be so mad at these folks when they have that right to have a defense. Why am I getting mad at somebody doing their job?
Speaker 5:And I remember that it's like why am I being so?
Speaker 3:petty. They were well-represented. Lawson was well-represented. I got to know the attorneys. I'm smart enough to know a good attorney from a bad one and I can tell you that I mean, both those guys were were represented with defense attorneys. The presentations were good. It's just, it is what it is. You know, now this case has been well covered and you may you may have an argument to say well, the jury knew more about the case than they let on and during vordire, or maybe, maybe you know, maybe the jury didn't do what the judge told them to do and not research it. But look, look, folks, here's the deal. We're in 2025 and when you can research anything with the with the thumb of your hand in a matter of minutes, you're going to do it now that now the judge told them every day do not research, do not conduct your own research. It has to be specific to what you hear in this courtroom, but I I just feel like that if I'm sitting on a jury, I probably ain't gonna listen to them on research.
Speaker 3:Now, I don't know that they did that, but I just feel like that in this day and time where research is so accessible, I feel like so maybe they knew, maybe they knew more than they did. I don't know. I'm not saying they did or they didn't, I'm just saying that likely in this day and time, with information is available and to your point as well, as it's been covered, yeah, I don't know anybody in Kentucky.
Speaker 2:That wouldn't be familiar with it already. Yeah, I think that's the thing Now the judge did it in Bordyre.
Speaker 3:That wouldn't be familiar with it already. Yeah, I think. Now the judge did it in board ire. He did a good job. He split up in three or four sections and he gave them a questionnaire and he said if you know, nothing about this case.
Speaker 3:You're in this group if you know you've heard about this case. But if you haven't formed an opinion, you're in this group. And if you've heard about the case and you formed an opinion, you're in this group. And that's how it kind of started his foundation, which I thought it was a masterful way to do it. I would say the middle that's heard about it, because I would say that the folks that didn't hear about it, they're lying yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean, I think, that's been the assertion by the defense, that they lied about it. But you know, I don't know. How do you prove that?
Speaker 1:I mean you're going to make a jury.
Speaker 3:Take a lie detector test, you're going to interrogate your jury. So with technology, this changed everything Social media, the coverage, our 24-7 news coverage on everything. Our police and our from wherever putting out info, arrests before it's. You know, they've had their day in court. How is it now time for the courts to make some changes on how they do things, and can we?
Speaker 1:Can that happen?
Speaker 3:And that's a good question, Travis, because a lot of people don't know this Karen and I talked about it. The prosecutor in the second trial could not mention the Steve Lawson trial.
Speaker 1:And how horrible could that be.
Speaker 3:And now we talked about Steve Lawson in the second trial and we talked about some of the things that had been testified to in the first trial, but the jury was never told hey, steve lawson's a co-conspirator and he was found guilty three weeks ago, right? So don't that's my fault with the justices. Don't. Don't yell at me about facts and truth when you only want parts of it, the parts you want to allow the jury to hear the reality is, and I guess I guess the the powers that be in the judiciary, jurist or judiciary, whatever they decided.
Speaker 3:well, it violates what Fifth and Fourteenth Amendment rights, if you let the jury know? But the reality is it was fact that they found Steve Lawson guilty, but the jury wasn't allowed to know that.
Speaker 1:So you know.
Speaker 3:I guess they're going to say, well, they researched it too much. But I'm going to say, well, that wasn't allowed in and it probably should have been, because it's a fact and you know put the facts out there and if it slants the jury, then so be it. It's a fact. It's not like it's an opinion.
Speaker 2:It would be evidence. Is it sequestered?
Speaker 3:Is that how you say, that Sequesterester, a jury, I mean in today's time, taking away, I mean you wouldn't get anybody. I know everything.
Speaker 1:I've already formed my opinion.
Speaker 3:Because you take away, you lock them up in a hotel for whatever during that time. It just don't happen anymore. It just doesn't At expense, you know, and it's just really hard, it's hardship on everybody, and you're talking about a 10 day trial, actual 10 days that's a long time, and in the heart of summer when most people are going on vacation.
Speaker 3:I mean that's tough, you know. I mean I know there will be things that they're going to try to appeal and you know we'll see what happens, but that's what I was going to ask. Next kind of is the will that and you've answered it pretty much because of the amount of publicity that the case has got. I mean, we're all five of us sitting here have listened to the podcast, have done it. How's this not?
Speaker 3:I mean I get it, they're going to go to appeal and they're going to have a good chance of getting a at least another maybe. I mean they could. You know of anything I've heard of, especially in Kentucky. I mean they could. They could get a another trial or at least get.
Speaker 5:I mean it goes to the Supreme Court.
Speaker 3:Anything over 20 years goes to the Supreme Court automatically. So so the House will go to the Supreme Court. We'll see what the seven decide on. You know they'll take everything. They'll listen to it. That'd be interesting, I didn't know that. That's good, it will be interesting.
Speaker 1:I was in a county yesterday.
Speaker 3:I won't say where I was at, but I was in a county. Yesterday I had a couple of the judges in their building looking at some of their electronic equipment and she said, hey, when you get time I want to hear all the juicy details on. I'm like, yes, ma'am, when I get time I'll tell you so to your point. It's an intriguing case. People don't know the details. We got another one going to happen. Yeah, I mean, it's one in Whiteburg.
Speaker 1:It's going to be a monster.
Speaker 3:It's probably likely we'll be in Bowling Green, probably in the spring of next year. I judge Cove Run as the judge on that case and I don't know if it's going to Bowling Green yet, but yeah, I suspect that it could go there and it'll be an interesting case for sure. It's just like that. Have me back and we'll talk about that one, that's going to be a good one too. I'm just getting a lot of the national that hit pretty quick.
Speaker 3:I'm blessed to be able to sit in the seat that I do and get to take in what I take in.
Speaker 2:I'm honored so, with hearing everything that you've heard through that trial, I know the podcast kind of hinted at it or that was. The big question is, was Jason's related to all? The others are all the others in that podcast tied together.
Speaker 3:I don't think I don't think they have a clear motive in jason's murder. Uh, I think it's a known fact that, uh, nick halk and jason, uh, about two weeks before jason was killed, didn't ye and Hall very well, didn't ye and Hall? But they had a little incident at roll call. I won't go a lot into that, but it's a known fact by the parties that there was some friction there. Now does that make a guy a suspect in a murder? I mean, I think it makes him a person of interest. And I'd be foolish to sit here and tell you they're not looking at Nick Houck. You know Nick Houck, former police officer. You look at the components of that Jason Ellis murder. Someone planned that very well, but does that make him a suspect? That alone, you know, person of interest is what we'll say. So I think you start to look at the whole totality of the circumstances. You know, I think I don't think you can not say Nick Calc's not a dangerous man and very capable of committing such a murder. Does that mean he did it?
Speaker 3:I don't know We'll see what happens, but I think he is I really thought there would be something with him on the crystal rogers case well, his name was mentioned. Now he's an unindicted co-conspirator. It's funny you say that travis, because his name came up a lot. He was a the white car which I'm sure karen's going to ask me about.
Speaker 3:You know, nick helped sell that car it was him alone brooks didn't have anything to do with the white car and I'll fill in the details when you're ready on that. And even in sentencing the prosecutor looked right at Rosemary Houck, who's sitting in the audience, and said she wanted her dead. And I'm thinking how do you do that without getting a lawsuit filed on you? But I guess when you're an unindicted co-conspirator, that gives the prosecutor a little bit more leverage in identifying you and mentioning your name in court. I don't know, those are legalities that are above my knowledge base, right?
Speaker 2:because I know, I know Nick came up, did he not? He called Brooks during one of his police interviews. He did and he told him. He told him to shut up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he told him they're going to try to screw you.
Speaker 3:you better, and so Brooks was like so you're telling me to leave and he's like yeah, I'm telling you to leave, so you know. And then of course, we all know that Nick, his police car, was seized and sent to the lab, and so I mean you know, there's a lot of things you can't overlook Nick as a player in this and I know I'll just go ahead and say it, I don't, I mean Nick, he practices long-range shooting. I've got neighbors that have specifically told me that when he shoots a report, about two seconds later you hear ping hit the metal. Well, what's that? Tell you, he's a long way away. He's a long way away, so he practices long-range shooting. Now again, can I indict?
Speaker 3:a guy based on that, no but you take the totality of the circumstances and you're starting to piece together what looks like something's not right. If it looks like a duck, it quacks like a duck. I mean like something's not right. If it looks like a duck quacks like a duck, I mean we're all cops, yeah and we got a young dispatcher sitting with us here.
Speaker 3:But listen, I mean we're just sitting around talking and I don't want to wrongly incriminate anybody, but but again, all these things are documented and so we'll see what happens. I you know, I don't know. They may not, they may not ever be an indictment. Currently he's not indicted. He's just referred to as an unindicted coke conspirator, he and his mom, rosemary.
Speaker 4:But his name did come up during the white car and that Now, from what I understand, that white car was sold that same week.
Speaker 5:It was.
Speaker 3:I'll tell you the story on the white car.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's true, the white car that was granny's car there was.
Speaker 3:Uh, shortly about, I don't know, probably three or four months after crystal went missing, tommy ballard posted on facebook that he was looking for a white car, possibly a buick. Well, finally, and the reason where the white car came into play there were some coon hunters that were hunting the night of July the 3rd in the farm, the farm next to the Brooks Out Farm. Well, it was raining and about 9, 30, 10 o'clock that night they walked up on a white car and they thought it was kind of odd because it was the middle of nowhere and obviously, you know, it looked like a decent vehicle and one of the coon hunters testified that it was from nelson county. So, uh, it took them three, four, five months to piece together that. Hmm, that was about. That was the night that girl went missing and we were next door to that farm. So the coon hunters reached out to tommy ballard and said, hey, this white car was here. So tommy put out a facebook post.
Speaker 3:Well, it took everybody in Nelson County and investigators to realize, hmm, brooks and Nick's grandma had a white car. Well, they go get a search warrant and look for the white car. And the white car sold Two or maybe a day or two before. So they find the car in Louisville. They brought a car dealer from Louisville I thought this was intriguing a car dealer from lul. I thought this was intriguing. But the car dealer came in and testified that nick halk and the and the mother grandmother of the car had come in and they wanted to sell the car. And the guy said okay, uh, what are you asking? So we want to sell the car. And the car dealer said well, I need to look at it so I can assess the value. And nick halk said no, you can't look inside the car who does that?
Speaker 1:you know, and that's what this guy testified to.
Speaker 3:So again I thought, hmm, that's interesting. So they ended up getting the car. Uh, the car was in a storage lot somewhere and one of the detectives uh, ran across a, uh, a guy, a cadaver dog guy. He, they were at the nra convention, I guess 2017 or 18 or somewhere around in there my timeline's a little maybe a little wrong, but like I've been a little yeah, and so one of the detectives who was familiar with the case, I guess, bumped into a guy and his dog at the nra convention.
Speaker 3:He advertising on the back of his shirt hey, I'm a cadaver dog. So the guy says, hey, let's see how good your dog is. So he on a random, he picks him up the next morning. The detective said he didn't tell him anything about the case, he didn't identify the car.
Speaker 1:And the canine handlers. You all know them, You've worked with them. They're pretty straight up.
Speaker 3:They don't want that information because they want to know that their dog is capable and competent to do, unless you're doing it in front of a bunch of Derek kids.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and competent to do, unless you're doing it in front of a bunch of Derek kids. Yeah, exactly, I can't miss this. Yeah, exactly, yeah right, yeah.
Speaker 3:So, anyway, they show up next day at the storage lot and the dog alerts on the car, on the rear of the car, and I think there was a hair found in there. But they couldn't do a DNAna comparison, say that it was crystals. They said it was. It kind of had similarities but it fell short of an actual 100 match. But y'all know how that is man, virgin cases are made on dna. I mean, I know hollywood loves it, but the reality is in the real world just doesn't happen all that often. But that's the story of the white car and uh and nick, nick and grandma helped get rid of that car after it appeared on facebook that people were looking for it.
Speaker 3:So again, mr halk, if you're listening, I don't know man, it's looking to me like it, yeah, the thing is gonna be pouring your way, but I you know we'll see he might be able to avoid prosecution. But I just feel like and that came up, his name was mentioned several times throughout the trial. So again, I guess, being an unendatted co-conspirator, there's certain liberties that the prosecution has did they ever land on a solid motive?
Speaker 3:never did well. A couple witnesses came in that worked for brooks and that knew knew Brooks, or knew Rosemary. Rosemary wanted her dead, didn't like her hair, didn't like her. Brooks had told some people that he wouldn't lose Eli. Eli's a child in common. He was about two years old at the time of the disappearance. You know, there was just some. They kind of led us to believe that there had been some talking and some people had overheard some conversations. But Rosemary didn't like her and I told Karen this.
Speaker 3:And to me the most compelling piece of evidence as I sat and listened there for two and a half weeks on the second trial, was they brought in the neighbor of Crystal Rogers in her subdivision and she lived across the road. And the prosecutor asked her, said how well do you know Crystal? And she said I know her well, said her kids come to my house, my kids go to her house, we see each other every day. Prosecutor said okay, tell me what you saw. And it was about four days after Crystal went missing. She said well, she said I thought it was odd because I was afraid, you know, crystal's gone missing, my best friend's gone missing and and I'm afraid the serial killer's on the loose. And she said all of a sudden I noticed one afternoon that rosemary pulled up in her car and nick pulled up in his police cruiser and they pulled in. But then they got out for a minute and they talked and then they backed out and then backed in the driveway so we couldn't see what they were doing. And they went in the house and they got some stuff and they put it in the trunk of their car and the prosecutor said okay, what else did you see? And she said well, the thing I thought was odd.
Speaker 3:Now again, this is not fabricated. This, she said well, the thing I thought was odd. Now again, this is not fabricated. This is raw eyewitness testimony. The young lady said well, I'll tell you what I saw. I saw Rosemary go over. Crystal had some pretty purple flowers in her flower garden and I saw Rosemary walk over and pull those flowers up and throw them in the trash. Can Now boys, ralph and Sue Ellen didn't raise no dummy. I'm going to tell you right now.
Speaker 4:I heard that I'm like bazinga and this was just a few days. This was three or four days.
Speaker 3:Rosemary. I walked her out. She was nice to me. I ain't going to lie. I was afraid somebody might snap a picture. If my picture had to be snapped, I'm glad it was with the Ballard family. But anyway she was complimented. She said thank you and I said ma'am, have a good day. But the thing about that is, the mother of your grandbaby is gone missing.
Speaker 3:Three days earlier you have done nothing to help locate her up until this point, and their defense was well, the sheriff told us not to get involved. Well, that you've done nothing to help locate her three or four days after she's gone missing and all you care about is some landscaping and flowers and landscape and you want to get rid of them. To me that paints a picture of I know she ain't coming back.
Speaker 4:Well, that's what I'm, yeah, this is my question. How do you know she's not coming back?
Speaker 5:Yeah, how do you know? Yeah.
Speaker 4:What were the bags that they were?
Speaker 3:carrying? Yeah, Nobody knows. And.
Speaker 4:Crystal may show up tomorrow.
Speaker 3:She may.
Speaker 4:As far as that week, nobody knew where Crystal was, so why would they expect her not to come back?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean to me. Why are you carrying little purple flowers at the girl's house for?
Speaker 2:Well, and, furthermore, most people who think somebody's missing or have lost a loved one.
Speaker 3:That's the last thing they do is go through things and get rid of their we're talking four or five days after, especially, yeah, you know the car, the speculation is and and the you know shane prosecutor alluded to it in his closing they were taking the car to get rid of it but it had a flat tire and the flat tire and they had a hard time getting somebody because there was some testimony that they had reached out to a gentleman by the name of Charlie Girdley and Charlie was just an old workhand, just an old rough, to sit here we'd probably laugh, cut up, but he's just an old rough guy got. You know, we've had a rough. He'll tell you, I've been addicted about my whole life to alcohol and drugs. But but anyway, charlie testified that they called him wanting him to come, move the car and they bring a trailer. It broke down and he's like I'm drunk and I can't come. So that you know that.
Speaker 3:But they couldn't get it moved so they'd left it there. And then, you know, they brought in some witnesses who saw it, who put it on the side of the BG Parkway at like 1030. And then the guy came back the next morning and he saw the car again. So they've got a time that the car was there and there was a lot of chatter back and forth about cell phone. You know location and to me that was good evidence. Uh, the homicide detective from lmpd, he came, he came down and he, he, I think he, I think he, he helped the case did they jail fence.
Speaker 3:It is that they were, but they were saying that that, uh uh, the defense is like well, yeah, they were looking at prisms on the towers and it's supposed to hit the closest tower, but the detective said that's not always the case.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it bumps them into too much traffic they brought in their expert.
Speaker 3:Honestly, I guess I didn't pay enough attention in science class to be, but I'm like I really don't need this to make my mind up. No, the lay witnesses was what spun it for me, like now. I'll be honest, I thought, in full disclosure, I hadn't listened to the podcast. I didn't know who Shane McAllister was. Now I did watch in anticipation of the trial. I did watch that Oxygen Network. I think it's like a six-part series. I did watch it just to kind of familiarize myself with the names and the players and possibly help me better do my job. So I knew that going in but I didn't dwell in the case that much. But I always was under the impression that Houck, in a fit of rage, killed her and then he used all these jokers to help get rid of the body. But after setting that testimony, truly convinced that they planned to get rid of her long before they did, he said that surprises me, because I would have thought it was a fit of rage just to I don't think so.
Speaker 3:He planned it the and and and I asked the jury members as we were walking out. I I said so tell me. You all can talk now. What was the most compelling piece of evidence for you? And one of the elderly women on the jury said well, I'll tell you what. His timeline was awful.
Speaker 3:Well, kudos to the detective that worked the case. Initially he was a detective with the Nelson County Sheriff's Department. He brought in Houck after they found her car, brought in Houck maybe two days later and gave him a piece of paper and said I need to know everywhere you were on July the 3rd. Well, he wrote like eight pages and they brought in witness after witness that said I didn't see him on July the 3rd, or he didn't come see me. I wasn't with him on July the 3rd, or he didn't come see me. I wasn't with him on July the 3rd. So that's part of it. But his phone location the geofencing showed him at his mama's farm all day long and it showed moving on his mama's farm, because there's more accuracy if you go through a Google than if you just go through the phone itself. And he was a Google.
Speaker 3:Now Nick, here we. We go talking about nick, again unindicted co-conspirator. But nick turned his phone off. They brought his girlfriend in. He was supposed to be helping move, helping her move. Him and her were moving from one house to another and he went. He went radio silent, radio silent.
Speaker 3:For a day and a half happened to be on July the 3rd. Brooks was at the farm all day long, from 8 to 4 doing something. Now, crystal had told some of her friends she was excited because she's going to have a date with Brooks and we're going to be kid free. Well, she was telling everybody, hey, I finally get to go on a date with my man, you know. And she was excited telling everybody hey, I finally get to go on a date with my my man, you know. And she was excited. Well, when they, when brooks, spoke to the detective about, about, uh, you know what y'all did on your date night, he said we went to the farm and walked around for two hours and hiking and, and so it was raining. That was the point that a lot of the witnesses kept saying. Apparently, it poured the rain on July the 3rd 2015. I don't know, but I guess so. Anyway, they kind of alluded to the fact that that was probably where he killed her at on the farm Because he took her back later his phone.
Speaker 3:She ended up going off the radar around 9 30 because she was she liked to play games and of course they brought in the cell bright expert who said you know, I can say that her phone stopped working. She was on facebook from this time to this time. She was on candy crush, maybe on this time, this time time, and at 9.28. So it appeared in my mind that her life ended right around between 9 and 10 o'clock on July the 3rd 2015. I think that's the conclusion you can draw Now. Her phone powered off Well, I'm sorry, it ran out of battery Powered back on about midnight or something and immediately went off again. Now there was a charger found next to the phone in the car. So you know, I don't know.
Speaker 3:Another piece of evidence that probably roasted him was on the July the 4th, her family was looking for her. Mom had called. Her family was looking for mom had called her text. Her kids had called and text her. Where are you at? Where are you at? Well, they started calling brooks. Have you seen mom texted brooks? Have you seen mom? Where's mom? And he wouldn't answer none of them. He wouldn't take their call and he wouldn't answer their text. Now you say, well, I was busy. Well, the only phone call he answered that day was from his mom. Rosemary called him and he answered her, but he didn't want to take it and Shane did a good job of highlighting that point. Shane said he didn't want to talk to them because he knew once he did, the bet was off and they would start looking for it. I mean, he emphasized that point. I was proud of him, man. He nailed that one home was her.
Speaker 2:It was the mom's phone call at the same time. All in the same time? Yeah, the same time frames so you know shortly before. So it just goes to prove that yeah, he was.
Speaker 3:He didn't want to talk to them, then everybody's going to come in, so he had a, basically yeah he had to push it out as far as he could.
Speaker 2:Now they talk about on the podcast that they bring up something about taxes and some underhand like cash deals and stuff.
Speaker 3:Was that the sheet stone or 20? Well, in 2019 or 20, somebody fraudulently used her name and social security number to try to scam the government. Maybe you know? I don't even know that that was even brought up much in the second trial. It somehow was brought up in the first trial but I didn't hear a lot said about that in the second trial. So there's been no. There's been no site. Now there was a. We talked about that as I thought that was pretty good piece of evidence, but there was a guy who a reputable citizen, who reported that he saw her in a car a couple days after they found the car on the parkway. He called in. They were getting hundreds of calls and the deputy testified to that.
Speaker 3:He said we were getting more calls than we could take in. So anyway, this couple said we saw her on such and such road in Nelson County. She looked like she was crying, so that was kind of a unique and that kind of took it off. Brooks, you know in the interview but if you one of the most compelling another compelling piece of evidence and not getting into any of the science of the cell phones, compelling piece of evidence in not getting in any of the signs of the cell phones, was during one of the search warrants in like 2019 or 20, 21. They did a search warrant for Rosemary's house and maybe Brooke's house, I don't remember. Anyway, they found three video cassette recorders. They were in the pants pocket in the closet voice recorders, voice recorders, closet Voice recorders, voice recorders, a little small voice recorders. Well, they listened to those voice recorders and it was the Houcks recording the grand jury testimony. Well, the knucklehead dumb criminal award. You know how those things are. Sometimes they turn on and you don't want them to. Well, it recorded some conversation about that. Maybe they didn't want to and I took a picture of the transcript. It was played to the jury.
Speaker 3:Now a lot of it was inaudible because it's in a pocket rubbing around, but it said the recording on July the 9th 2015,. Brooks says to Rosemary it was a conversation between Brooks and Rosemary Houck about the blanket. There was a blanket that was found in the back of Nick's cruiser. When it was so they were recording people. Of course, their testimony was well, we were paranoid Everybody's out to get us so we wanted to start recording our interactions. Okay, okay, whatever.
Speaker 3:On July the 9th, 9th 2015. A conversation between brooks and rosemary halk about the blanket. Brooks says so they took his car from him. Rosemary says you know that blanket in the trunk. He was worried about that at first. Does it have anything on it? Rosemary says to brooks. Brooks says uh, uh. Rosemary says okay, what about that thing from yesterday? Brooks says don't matter. Now this is a conversation going on between the chief suspect and his mama. They accidentally recorded it, so fast forward. Another joke Brooks says there's teal right there. Rosemary says Casey. Brooks says yeah, and then Rosemary says some kind of comment. Brooks says there's teal right there. Rosemary says Casey. Brooks says yeah, and then Rosemary says some kind of comment. Brooks says what's that? And then Rosemary says I wish my windows were black. And then Brooks says blacked out and he chuckles and this is six days after the wife of his mother disappears and he's chuckling about having tinted windows.
Speaker 3:It's easy to villainize these people Now I know their defense did a good job, but there's just so much. And then the other, july of the 9th 2015,. Brooks says to I think he's talking to somebody, I don't know if they ever determined who and he says a bad tip's jacked them all up. Well, he's referring to that tip that that family said well, we saw her, so he knew that. You know they were forming a timeline, that he's the one. July the 3rd is the day. Now, all of a sudden, this good, reputable couple comes in and they're saying that, well, we seen her, we seen her, like on July the 6th or 7th, on this road, you know, and they were just good people, they were just mistaken.
Speaker 4:But Brooks tells probably Nick or Rosemary the bad tips jacked them all up. A bad tip, a bad tip. He knows it's a bad tip.
Speaker 3:Well, he knew because Snow had told him in that interview that you all have seen Snow stole it and told Brooks that the tip did not pan out until after July, the 11th.
Speaker 1:So he knew it was a bad tip Before Before. The police knew it was a bad tip Before he was told.
Speaker 3:So you know little tidbits like that you miss in coverage, but to me that's pretty compelling.
Speaker 4:That takes me back to the car, her car, and this may go back to the Stephen Lawson and this may go back to the steven lawson brooks house was supposed to have asked steven lawson or joey one to move that car correct, that's right move it from where well, there was testimony.
Speaker 3:Move it from brooks house farm okay move it.
Speaker 3:We don't know where, don't know, there was some testimony that one of the witnesses that she overheard it was the girlfriend of Stephen Lawson. Now Stephen is the father of Joey Lawson, Right, right, and the girlfriend of Stephen Lawson testified over here in a conversation between Stephen and Joey, that they were going to move the car and help move the body for $50,000. Okay, that money was never found. You know the bank documents didn't reveal that. But let's face it here we're dealing with meth heads, oh you know, I mean we all, not to degrade people with addiction.
Speaker 3:But the reality is we're not dealing with.
Speaker 4:They're not very reliable. I haven't heard where they were moving it from and why. Okay, well, they, if you're not questioning.
Speaker 3:Steve. And why? Okay? Well, steve testified on his own in his trial. Yes, and he testified that he was at the farm and Joey pulled up in the car. So get that out of here, get that out of here. Okay, and of course, surprised you. He was like why did you want to get rid of it? Why did you say that, get it out of here? And he said, well, we just didn't need that car up here. You get it out of here. And he said, well, I just, he said we just didn't need that car up here. You know, he tried to cover up the fact that he knew they didn't need to be around that car. Well, anyway, steve indicated that Joey told him to move the car. So Steve was following. Joey was driving Crystal's car down the parkway. Steve testified that the car had a flat pulled off side of the road and that when Joey got out of the car, steve moved the seat forward. Now he said, well, just that the the seat was. I knew that joey was taller than crystal. Well, he admitted to me right there. He was trying to deceive investigators. He wanted to look like that. Crystal left that car as it was.
Speaker 3:Now that that didn't come out in the second trial. But that was a big piece of the first trial because, but understand, there had been so many investigators that had interrogated these people. You know, they lied, they lied. They tell the truth. They tell the partial truth. They lie again. But during one of the interviews where he probably told the truth, that's when he admitted yeah, I followed my son, he drove that car. I mean, you all know how it is, sometimes people will tell the truth and sometimes they won't. If they think they can fool you as an interviewer, they'll do it. But I guess whoever was interviewing was able to peer back some of those onion layers of defense and and he told the truth. And he said, yeah, we moved the car, but that didn't come out. In the second trial, the second trial, they probably spent the better part of two days talking about cell phone triangulation.
Speaker 1:Well, that's a distraction.
Speaker 3:Because I had the knowledge in the first trial. Well, the dude that moved the car admitted to it.
Speaker 2:So why are we going?
Speaker 3:on, but again, that's part of that justiceship stuff that annoyed me and we wasted two days of our time talking about it. Because that was a terrible incident. Yeah, exactly, you can lose a jury talking over their head about stuff that they don't understand. Yeah, and you can. You know if you can distract them or preoccupy them and I know as bad ADHD as I am, it don't take much. I'm a squirrel.
Speaker 2:That's why I'm a manager. Well, let me ask you this this is another question.
Speaker 4:I have that? I've not heard answered or I've just not found it. Now. Crystal Rogers' other children. They interviewed their dad. Okay, now that day, the 3rd of July, did Crystal Rogers drop the kids off with their father or did the father pick the kids up?
Speaker 3:That I don't know, because I think I've heard it both ways they were. I think that's pretty much Crystal's husband's alibi. Now she was still married to the Rogers guy, correct, and she was shacked up and leaving the Brooks on and on again, off again. But I think his alibi was well, he had the kids. They had two kids in common. She had a kid, maybe two kids before the Rogers and then of course, eli, so he had five kids.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 3:So the kids were with her husband, right, but she was at Walmart. She was at Walmart with Eli and maybe one of the other girls and I guess I don't know, I don't know that's a good question.
Speaker 4:That's what I'm saying. Then I heard something about his testimony saying that she was showing a house.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for rental.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and she got home about 530?.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That's what Well did she have?
Speaker 4:That's what I'm saying. Did she drop the child? That was not Eli. Well, there was.
Speaker 3:Rhonda, who's a sister of Brooks and Nick, testified that she had Eli with her at the Science Museum in Louisville on July the 3rd. But if you Google when the Science Museum in Louisville, it says it was not open to the public on July the 3rd, so I don't know.
Speaker 4:And then there's Walmart.
Speaker 3:The Walmart footage and I don't know if Eli was. You may all know, but I remember seeing the footage but I don't know who was with her during that footage. But yeah, I think you know the defense made an issue that well they didn't really look at the Rogers guy as a suspect or none of her other, but in reality I think that the kids were with them.
Speaker 4:I'm just trying to figure out. Yeah, it's hard to probably. I'm just trying to figure out that timeline of where the kids were and how they got to where they were.
Speaker 3:Brooks says that Eli was with them the night, that he went to bed about midnight and that Crystal was playing on her phone and that Eli routinely would not went to bed about midnight and that Crystal was playing on her phone and that Eli routinely would not go to bed until Crystal went to bed. And then Brooks says well, I woke up Saturday morning and kids lay next to me and I don't know where Crystal is. And she's done this before.
Speaker 4:But wasn't there testimony too about one of the other children? Well, none of the other children. Yeah, the oldest girl. That's the one that called Brooks on Saturday and said hey, have you seen Mom and he wouldn't take her call. So that's what I was trying to figure out.
Speaker 3:It was testified too that he didn't like the other children. And he would pay more attention to Eli than he would to stepkids.
Speaker 4:That's what kind of confused me too. How did those kids get distributed before their farm trip?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't know. That's a good question.
Speaker 4:She had a basketball team.
Speaker 3:I mean, that's a bunch of kids. She did.
Speaker 4:And especially if they kept the kids most of the time. It kind of sounded that way almost.
Speaker 3:But we, and I'll tell you this, this is something the public don't know and I don't know if I should tell you or not, but I'm going to because I want to. I want to. I like your style. Well, mainly the reason I want to do this I want to commend shane young because you all have worked trials, you've been involved in investigation. There's always more to the story than what we can tell. Certain things aren't allowed in.
Speaker 3:Well, the the friday, what well, it was the 4th of July this year. We monitored Brooks Houck's outgoing phone calls and for those of you that are all about defendant's rights, just so you know, when you go to jail, your phone calls are not private, absolutely. So I made the decision what calls are not private? So I made the decision what we set it up with the Warren County Jail. I want to know what that dude's saying, because if there's something going on, I'm gonna be ahead of it. Right. So I had one of my coordinators every night and he's a nosy little fella. He's a retired trooper, and he's nosy and and he's perfect guy for it.
Speaker 1:He was, he, a retired trooper and he's nosy, and and then perfect, guy eat up with it.
Speaker 3:He was, he was wearing me out. Send me the code, because in order to log into this program I have to be the administrator, and I would. He would make the request and the code would get sent to me and then I would give it to him and then he would get online and listen to the house phone conversation. Well, there was a conversation on fourth of july, by and, and here's the timeline the defense had rested that day, I'm sorry, the day before july the third, the defense rested. We were going to be off the fourth, fifth, six, they would come back on the seventh and we would start with closing arguments. Well, and then again.
Speaker 3:I'm just telling this because I want to highlight shane young and what just a great man he is. We intercepted a conversation between nick and brooks brook. Or nick is at ronda's house and nick is at ronda's house, and nick says to ronda you're going to take care of that, aren't you? And Rhonda, I guess, says yes, she nods and Nick's talking and he says to Brooks he says yeah, listen we're going to take care of that and then we're going to let your attorneys do whatever.
Speaker 3:Okay, what are we talking about here? Because the trial's, in essence, over with. All of a sudden, brooks abruptly hangs up the phone. I felt like that he was hanging up the phone. He's saying shut up, dummy, they're listening, yeah, and you can hear the recording say the caller has left the conversation. So I felt like Nick forgot for a moment that he was. So what was he talking about? What are we going to take care of? So I called the detectives, I called Desi, I called the prosecutor and the I called the detectives, I called Desi, I called the prosecutor and the prosecutor called me. He said Foot, what do you think? And I said Shane, I think we need to. I'm going to tighten the security on the judge and I think we need to tighten security on you. And Shane still has security, but Shane moved his wife and kids out of his house. This is your prosecutor, probably the biggest case of his life. He's getting ready to deliver closing arguments and he ain't sleeping because he's afraid somebody's going to kill him Wow. So he had to show up on Monday and, I'll be honest, he didn't do great in closing Because I'd watched him throughout the trial and I told him this.
Speaker 3:I said you did great, but hell, I'm sorry I need to cuss, you're all right? I think I probably said one I mean, bleep me, bleep that out if I can. I mean my preacher don't like it when I cuss. But but I said man listen, you've been up all night all weekend worrying somebody gonna shoot you. I said you did awesome compared with what you had against you. So that's the reason I tell that story. He would probably say I wish you hadn't told that. But I tell that to highlight what a man, what a good man he is to be able to overcome the adversity. And maybe there was nothing to it, maybe it was an innocent conversation, but I felt like when Brooks Howe camealk on that phone he was like shut up, dummy, you're talking too much.
Speaker 2:Well, you would think that somebody that works in law enforcement would know and immediately think of that too.
Speaker 3:But I think he's trying to tell his buddy we got you back here.
Speaker 1:Maybe I think you're right.
Speaker 3:Maybe I would have taken extreme precautions on on on him and the judge and we typed security up. I called the judge. I said, judge, here's what's up. And he was like you know and I worried about the judge, because judge is like I darned. If they want me to, got me, I live right here in elsa county.
Speaker 1:I'm like judge, that ain't really what I want to hear, but anyway, he's a heck of a good guy too, man.
Speaker 3:I mean just mean just good public servants man.
Speaker 3:You know you don't hear these stories. You only hear when there's corruption or something kind of a riot. But these dudes are just good men who want to do the right thing. They put themselves in harm's way and that's the reason I tell that I hope I'm not divulging anything, but that happened. It's in our rear view. I don't think it matters. But I mean, yeah, shane Young showed up, did closing arguments on that Monday, literally probably had zero sleep, had moved his wife and kids out of there. Now his wife, teresa, is his co-counsel. I mean, she did a heck of a job too. That's awesome. And then Jim Lukowski. He's a retired prosecutor from now again bragging on these people. He's a retired prosecutor from jefferson county, um. He's in his 70s gem of a fella. He he donated his time for this case. He got paid nothing for this case. So you've got the defense team and I don't want to villainize them they're doing their job.
Speaker 1:They made money, but they got paid.
Speaker 3:Well, and then you got the prosecution team, who one of the key, the key dudes is donating his time.
Speaker 1:Wow so that's why that's the only reason I tell that story I mean, you know, I did, maybe I'm maybe I overdramatized it.
Speaker 3:I hope I didn't.
Speaker 1:No, I don't want to cause undue alarm but, but let's.
Speaker 3:When I heard that my guy sent that to me, he said hey, what do you think about this? I'll listen to it. I'll meet you on the phone, so I'll be back with you shortly. Keep listening. Yeah, and I got on the phone and everybody was like me.
Speaker 3:They were alarmed by that, by that little interaction between the hot boys yeah, and you never know you don't know who, you don't know what you don't ever know they could have been talking about anything, but the abrupt hanging up lets me know I would have been on floor and I don't. Um, I wouldn't, that would scare me, yeah and I'm responsible for these people imagine having to go back in there and do closing when you just had to move your family out of there and you're not exactly sure if you're going to make it out of the courtroom alive or I mean I took over.
Speaker 3:uh, we transported the prosecutor, you know defense knew about it.
Speaker 1:I mean, you know they knew about it.
Speaker 3:So it wasn't like we were trying to, you know, slide the deck one way or another. I just wanted to make sure everybody was safe. But anyway, that's the reason I tell that story. That's a great insight. I mean, that's the reason I tell that story, that's a great insight.
Speaker 4:I mean that's a great insight. Were there any calls? I'm going back to the cell phone. No, you go right ahead, detective, my mind's just rolling.
Speaker 3:Detective Thomas. We know why Doug Thomas has excelled in police work Because you were here telling him what to do.
Speaker 1:Hey, I took care of him, I know, yeah, I told him all where to go and what to do.
Speaker 4:That was my job. I got paid to do it at one time, right Travis? Yeah, I agree, I told you where to go and what to do. Somebody needs to know Somebody had to dispatch it, going back to the 3rd, july, 3rd and 4th, and the cell phone records. Were there any conversations caused to or from Brooks and Nick during that 24-hour period? Nick went radio silent, completely Nothing even earlier in the day he turned his phone off.
Speaker 3:Now you can't say that. You can say well, it just didn't hit any towers, but the cell bright expert or somebody. There was experts on both sides, but all agreed that it was likely. It was just no record because it had been turned off.
Speaker 4:No talking. Well there was word of a burner phone and I don't know if I've heard that from a reporter. If that comes through with Rosemary having a burner phone, yeah, I don't know about it. I don't recall that it didn't come through the burner.
Speaker 3:I don't recall about that, and they really didn't look at the triangulation of the cell phones until like 2020, when the Attorney General's office got involved. Tell me about. Let's go to the first trial. How long was it?
Speaker 1:It was four days it started on Tuesday and ended on.
Speaker 3:Friday and he, and now that his son was it, was it at one time they were going to try him too right, that son?
Speaker 4:yeah, he was tried with Brooks, oh yeah, okay, so Jason Lawson was tried first.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And then Brooks and Joey.
Speaker 5:Okay, I got you.
Speaker 3:The first trial, then I mean it was pretty cut and dry. It was pretty cut and dry. I mean the defense got up and opened him arguments. Look, we're gonna, we're gonna go ahead and admit right now to tampering with evidence. And that was based on Steve Lawson admitting in. You know, post Miranda, the hell. We moved the car, I mean you the conspiracy was what they had a problem with, okay. But I mean I think if you move the car and the murder listen again, I'm an old, dumb country boy but it's going to be hard for you to convince me otherwise you didn't know about the murder.
Speaker 3:That's what's funny about this one, I think, is how did they keep him from coming in, because you know he was probably trying to lighten his sentence. Yeah, you know, I don't know and I don't want to speak for Shane on that, but I think Shane just got so tired of the back and the forth and the lies that he's like no, let's go with it, let's not risk it, let's roll with it and see what happens.
Speaker 3:Okay, because you know, because part of me looking at it is like man, I want his testimony against Brooks yeah.
Speaker 2:But if it was just all of a sudden, kind of If it was Bill's, that might be something that they bring back in later as his testimony.
Speaker 3:Yeah, all things would be different if it does, it'd be like, well, let's go, we also have another guilty party with this. Then it might be able to link up some later. So, man, what a, what a wild 10 years really of just who knows what's going on. And then all of a sudden there's a trial, and you know, arrest and a trial and bang. It's like all in, like when did they make the arrest? Was that about this time last year? Yeah, it was. It had been, I don't know, sometime early 20, late 23, early 24, somewhere in there, I don't know the time.
Speaker 3:How many times did you see like news footage? Especially, they went out to the property. They've brought backhoes out here, you know, I don't know how many holes that day out there and looking. Well, it's funny. You say that the defense brought in a, an expert, denny butler, who used to be a state representative and he's a retired metro detective, and he came in. He was their last witness and they basically used him to point out all the near misses.
Speaker 3:And you all know how it is Lab reports you send stuff in hoping for comparison, it doesn't happen. Or the inconclusive, yeah, yeah. Well, they brought Butler in to testify to all the inconclusives, to make it look like all these countless hours of investigation and they've yet to find the body, they've yet to find the smoking gun, to try to basically eliminate and shortchange the investigation. And Brian Butler made the statement in closing. He said they're just throwing stuff on the wall and hoping it'll stick, yeah, but there's a lot of stuff that's stuck, yeah. Now I don't know. I hope it don't get appealed. I'm just an old bailiff, court bailiff, my opinion don't matter, but you can't. If you do appeal it ain't. Nothing brooks how it can do. He wrote down eight pages of a timeline, on july the third and you've got countless witnesses that can come in and say, well, that didn't happen, and that didn't happen, and that didn't happen you can't make that you can argue, the cell phone stuff you can, you can say well, them coon hunters, it was raining, they don't know, you know.
Speaker 3:I mean, that was some of the stuff. You can say the government wanted him arrested, whatever. But at the end of the day it was Brooks Houck's testimony. Well, not his testimony, but Brooks Houck's testimony. Well, not his testimony, but Brooks Houck's timeline. His alibi was awful.
Speaker 4:But wasn't it more like a to-do list instead of I've done it list?
Speaker 3:Yeah it was kind of. He just thought of stuff that he had done over the last few weeks and I guess he was hoping that John Snow, the detective, who did a good job I mean, you know, I felt like he did a good job. It's a big case and you know he's to be commended for his work and he had. You know he brought him in. This was before Nick called him and said hey, man, get out of there, they're trying to hang you. I'm paraphrasing, but he wrote out his timeline and his timeline was awful and that's what the two ladies that I spoke to, the jury members, said. You know it was, it was bad, it was just a bad timeline. So but all the other little anomalies, like the flower pulling, and to me that was like some evil, I mean, that's what I mean.
Speaker 4:Even if it wasn't evil, why would you not think she might come back?
Speaker 3:yeah, I agree that's you know.
Speaker 4:You knew she would have it back or you wouldn't pull the flowers up man but this is a
Speaker 3:who done it, you know, and, and it's intriguing, but I think you know, luke, I get it. I guess there's some, some statutory law or some case law or some precedent that's been set. Both defense teams cited it. Well, there's no crime scene, there's nobody, there's no gun, you can't have a murder. And I almost wanted to get up and say, look, don't insult my intelligence. Yeah, you know, it's been 10 years. Well, she's gone. She ain't coming back no.
Speaker 4:I think the judge pointed that out to me, that she's deceased.
Speaker 3:And you know we do have a car that was hurt. That's not where it's supposed to be. We have some things.
Speaker 3:And I'll say this to the family. I pulled Casey Ballard aside. That's the brother. Upmost respect for that guy. I pulled him aside before the defense team started on Steve Lawson Because I knew they were going to get up and they were just. You know, they were going to do their job. I pulled him aside and I said I said, casey, every emotion that you've ever felt is going to come back to you when they start talking. And I said you've got to keep your folks under control. We've come too far for a mistrial. Lock it down. And he was crying and he put his head on my shoulder and he said yes sir, yes sir. He said this is so hard. That's just the kind of people they are, man. They don't want no notoriety with this. I'm sure they'll get a book, a movie, I don't know, but they don't want it. They're just good country people looking for justice. I think the whole thing. They won't know what happened to their daughter. I don't know how she picked up the reporter.
Speaker 4:Shay.
Speaker 3:Shay McAllister. I wonder how that landed. I know a lot of crazy stuff going on in Bardstown at the time, but I really don't think they were looking to be famous. They were just looking for help, looking for help, and she took it. You know Shea took it to the next level that you know nobody could really. And who would have thought that? You know.
Speaker 1:Instrumental yeah, and then they go into.
Speaker 4:TV shows and different things and her reporting was actually it wasn't opinion she went. You could tell that she actually investigated, she done investigative reporting she did, she did I mean, she was not she, she tried. You could tell almost that she was wanting to make sure that she had no bias.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I thought she did her best to try to go talk to each one, but you know she you can't help, but probably with the mother, you know, and when they interviewed her and you could just hear the heartbreak, and then it was just so strange. Now, now I won't, I just want some resolve here in the other murders. Now, sure, sure.
Speaker 4:But I think we all do, which brings me back to I think we all do yes, ma'am. A gun, that was.
Speaker 3:Reporting for duty ma'am. Yes, sir, detecting Thomas, you're doing a fine job.
Speaker 4:You're doing a fine job, fine job. There was the gun that killed Tommy. That Valid.
Speaker 3:That gun is in the police evidence. The bullet that was found and I don't know if this is public knowledge and I don't know if I should say it, but I think everybody knows about it but the bullet that killed Tommy has been analyzed with the rifle. They think that came from Nick. The bullet that killed Tommy has been analyzed with the rifle. They think that came from Nick. You need five parameters to say yeah, that bullet came from that gun and the expert that looked at it said I can only give you four of the five parameters.
Speaker 1:I mean, guys, that's evidence. You know we've dealt with that our whole careers.
Speaker 3:The near misses. Yeah, do you go with four out of five? What would a grand jury say? I don't know. You know I don't want to influence anybody, but that's what I know, that's better than 50%, I think that's public knowledge, you know, so I don't know. We'll see what happens.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think there's more.
Speaker 4:I think and son yes, that's just pure evil. No, I mean, that's just pure evil, it would have to be.
Speaker 3:I don't think it was a hunting accident. No, I don't.
Speaker 4:I think they just threw that out there to try to, but I think it was someone inside that knew, yeah, that knew where he was hunting, who, when, when he was hunting.
Speaker 3:Well you just. There's a lot of planning that's went into each of these things. And I don't know that. The teacher and her daughter. I don't know that that's connected. I don't, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I don't know that it is either. I don't think that it is, but I don't want to say it ain't. I'll let the powers that be investigate that, you would think a crime like that evidence would have been left, fingerprintsace something we know.
Speaker 3:Tommy Ballard's sister was murdered in the 1970s. You didn't know that. Yeah, that went in Nelson County. So I think Nelson, maybe in Washington, but I think Nelson County. Yeah, she was murdered. Wow, I think they arrested a man in that case. But yeah, I mean this poor family man, the heartache that they've had to endure. And you know Crystal's daughters, of course they're grown now, I mean almost grown. I mean you know what they've had to put up with.
Speaker 5:And you know.
Speaker 3:I was glad to see. I mean, you know I've been in Nelson County some and I know a few people there, but I was glad to see and again this is unprecedented the town lined up to greet them as they came back through. I saw a photo of.
Speaker 4:Maybe the courthouse there lit up in pink.
Speaker 3:I mean I think everybody knows that the verdict was correct and they were celebrating a belief in our justice system.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we needed that.
Speaker 5:We did, we did these wins, we did and you know, we as police officers, we get defeated.
Speaker 3:We get over it, you know. But now the public needed to see that our justice system. We got our problems, but it's still the best justice system in the world, Absolutely Best country in the world. We got people lining up to get in this country because they want to write to a fair trial. You don't get that in Mexico too.
Speaker 4:The cartel wants to kill that day, but here you got representation.
Speaker 3:You know. So hey, we complain about it, I've complained about it, but the reality is we got a good justice system.
Speaker 4:Nick was mentioned a lot, and even Amber Bowman, his girlfriend, was a witness. What did you think about her testimony?
Speaker 3:I thought she did a good job. She's very nervous. Her dad was also supposed to testify. He ended up not testifying. I guess they felt like they made their points with Amber, the prosecution, but they brought Amber in to testify that. You know where was Nick? She said I don't know. I called him 15 times, he didn't answer, went straight to voicemail. And you know my mom, my dad, because there was a timeline, they had to be out. They had sold their house or had rented the house that they were in and they were moving to another one, a fixer-upper. She wasn't happy about it. She admitted that on the stand. She said I wasn't happy about it and I really wasn't happy that he's supposed to help me and my dad move and he was nowhere to be found that was this on the this was july the third, going into july the fourth, so she got up and she got up and testified to that.
Speaker 3:I don't know that, I don't think they're still together, but but I mean that's to me pretty compelling evidence that that brother was probably involved, or you know.
Speaker 4:I mean it's circumstantial, but a lot of this is anyway yeah, and I'm assuming that was not normal for him to do that.
Speaker 3:No, well, the prosecutor said you know, look here, he is a police officer. We're all police officers, you know, we're not really ever off duty, so for us to be away from our phone it's kind of significant. Yes, I feel weird, you know, not having it on, or if my battery gets like oh gosh, I gotta get this plugged up. You know, um, you don't want to miss that call or want to miss the. You know so especially, but it's uh, I mean you know it?
Speaker 3:it was not with your wife or your significant other. You definitely want to be able to make sure it's on and where you need. So I was. I was proud of my band of merry men, you know, they three of them because warren county so couldn't really provide other than the drone. They couldn't really provide physical security for the parking lot.
Speaker 3:And again, you know my thoughts on parking lots and I had three of my guys were in the heat, it was hot and those guys were out there. You know, making sure everybody's safe in the parking lot, getting everybody in. What I wanted to avoid was a witness showing up in a parking lot and meandering around the parking lot not knowing where to go. I'm not trying to make this more than what it is, but I wanted, as soon as they arrived on the property, I wanted one of my people to get them out of their car and get them in the door, screen them and then get them upstairs where they need to go. Yeah, and it worked flawlessly. And that's not me, that's my people that did a great job.
Speaker 4:One of the weirdest things and that's a big deal. It is a big deal when you've got a witness in this large of a case.
Speaker 3:We got the defense. We did the same thing for the defense. We let them park in the back of the courthouse and we got them in the back door and the prosecutors wanted to make sure everybody was safe because there had been instances where some of the family had been some altercations with some former attorneys, so the family had been some altercations with some former attorneys. So you know, I mean I didn't want anybody getting hurt. So again, this ain't about me, but we tried to make sure everybody was safe. So one of the weirdest things being involved in some decently big trials you know nothing on this, but locally having to be witnesses on a trial and getting sent in to the other, usually if there's a lot of people, a lot of witnesses, we've sat together and it is a weird feeling. Going I'm on the looks that they give and then it's a weird Was y'all able to separate the witnesses? Are they y'all we train? That's a tough Well. Was y'all able to separate the witnesses, or are they y'all we trained?
Speaker 1:Because that's a tough Well we trained nonverbal, you know, watch the.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we had an instance where a detective got up and he got out of the jury box and he walked around in front of the jury box to point to something on the TV which was positioned behind him. Well, his gun. You know how the blazer has a cut in the back?
Speaker 3:Well, his gun had got in that cut and his gun was exposed and you know he swirled around and ended up. He was right in front of Brooks Houck. So me and my two boys that saw it, we immediately got on our feet. Now we didn't make a big deal about it, but we got on our feet so we could be vigilant to address it. But the gun was almost within arm's reach of Brooks Houck. Those are little things. We try to watch out for. The detective. He was focused on the evidence and presenting it to the jury. He had no idea his gun was exposed at the back of his jacket. But little stuff like that to us is paramount. But we watch. We call it scripting. We watch the defendant. We watch their eyes. Where are their hands when we walk by? Are they looking at our gun? If you remember a few years ago in Harlan County when ATF took a guy down there, remember the guy who put the bombs in the cell phone camera in the remote cameras, yeah Well see.
Speaker 3:part of his deal was I'll take you back to the woods and show you where the other cameras are. Well, that was nothing more than a ploy for him to go out there and go after a gun, and they shot and killed him, yeah. So I have to think about it. I have that knowledge going in, so I have to plan for that contingency. I'm not saying Brooks Happ was going to do that, but I have to plan it if he would. So there's just a lot of little things that come into play. How many witnesses do you think testified in this one? I want to say probably 55 or 60.
Speaker 1:I would say probably over 60. You have that many witnesses.
Speaker 3:they can't be in the courtroom until they're called and there's not a lot of room to put them folks.
Speaker 1:I know they probably came at different days, but the times I've had that.
Speaker 3:It's only been like a one two-day jury.
Speaker 5:How many witnesses did you have in a certain?
Speaker 3:day. Well, you know the most, patty Hall she was the victim's advocate did a remarkable job, just a great lady. She kind of coordinated that. That's good. She was talking with Shane, the prosecutor, every day and they were kind of planning ahead Okay, we'll probably make it to this point. So kudos to them on that. They handled that.
Speaker 2:We just made sure they got in and out okay, but they, they kind of managed that because you know okay defense is calling these.
Speaker 3:Defense is calling these alright, prosecution's calling and. I know you got days like when it's a one, two day and all the witnesses are the defense and the they're all together. Yeah, that's some strange times in there. You know what I?
Speaker 5:mean it's true In the federal system we have separate rooms, separate rooms.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and they had that.
Speaker 5:That's good, because we were all just in the other courtroom just sitting there like we had an instance in the first trial.
Speaker 3:And again, I like Shane and I ended up developing a likeness for the defense attorney for Steve Lawson Darren's his first name I'd have to go back and look, but anyway what his last name is. But he and Shane they just didn't like each other and you could tell and they were. Darren had an issue and he jumped up and he said you're all right, he can't do that. And Shane turned and wheeled around at him and I could just tell you know, well, they went to the bench and the judge kind of come up out of his seat to tell them to settle down, settle down, and they wouldn't listen to him. So I just kind of walked up there between them, I put my arm around both of them and I politely turned them toward the judge. But you know, emotions run high and I didn't want nobody getting you know.
Speaker 1:I didn't want nobody fisting a cup in there, so you know.
Speaker 3:I mean, it's a very insignificant thing I did, but I just put my arm around both of them and kind of turned them. Okay, boys, settle down now, it's okay. Shane laughed about it later and so did Darren. But you know, darren did a good job. He and a guy by the name of Zach Booker out of Lexington represented Steve Lawson, and they did a good job. I mean that's. You know. I have to say All you want is a fair trial.
Speaker 5:I mean honestly, you want good representation and they had it.
Speaker 3:You know, there may be some things that get appealed, but it won't be because it was insufficient defense Right. Every one of those defense attorneys and their staff are very professional. Good, good, I'm hoping this is put to rest. I, but I'm hoping this is put to rest. I'm hoping you know at least this section of it. The problem is there's four more that we know of right and then maybe more. I think there was a body found in another county about the same time. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Yeah, I mean it's certainly. We're hoping for some closure, for some more than just this.
Speaker 4:So we'll see what happens. Going back to the jurors, the judge allowed them to ask questions too.
Speaker 3:He did.
Speaker 3:It's kind of a it's more common than what I knew and it's all above board. When a witness would get on the stand, the jury could write down a question on a piece of paper. They would hand it to the bailiff because the judge would always say any questions of the witness from the jury and if they had a question they'd raise their paper. The bailiff would go get it, take it to the judge, the defense and prosecution would come, the white noise and they would read the question to each other and talk about it and if it was an admissible question then he would ask it to the witness. And there were some good questions and you can kind of tell what the jury's thinking by the way. They asked the question.
Speaker 4:That was another thing.
Speaker 5:Probably, defense was probably like oh gosh, Another something silly that we do and I don't know.
Speaker 3:You probably think we're a bunch of corny bailiffs, and I'd say Duke Thomas does it too. It's just when you're locked up in a courthouse all day you just find things to entertain yourself, but we try to pick. I won't say we bet, but we try to pick. Who the former of the jury is going to be, you know. You just study human behavior. Who makes them laugh, you know who opens the door for the ladies, who does the little things that on vote day, who's? You know, let's see. And so I want to brag.
Speaker 1:Who's the natural leader? I?
Speaker 3:didn't naturally pick the foreman of the jury. I mean, you won, I won, yeah, I won. I pointed it out to my boys a time or two too.
Speaker 5:Do you all usually? I mean, actually it happened today about who's going to be the grand jury for me did you pick it? I didn't pick it, but they, drew, said, who do you think it should be? I said what do you got? I said I think it should be some farmer somewhere. We don't have no farmer, why not?
Speaker 3:I said really no, I mean, you know it's just we all do it as cops. Most of the time we do it we don't even realize we're doing it, but it's just studying human behavior and their actions and interaction with others. And you know that's a leader, that's not a leader.
Speaker 5:Well, you can use it when they come through there. You can almost pick them out.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 5:Just how they carry themselves.
Speaker 4:Just like you said, said the little things that they do, yeah. So, yeah, it's interesting it is, but I never I.
Speaker 3:So the jury was pretty attentive, it sounds like. It sounds like they were very, very one juror. Remember that that was kind of sleep young fella and he didn't. He didn't make the final cut, he got to let go and in the you know they did 15 15 set through the direction of the trial, but three were cut the morning of, so you had three alternates. Yeah, three alternates. How was jury selection in that Was? It pretty took a whole day.
Speaker 4:The whole day of it was really long.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was Now in the Lawson, the first trial. We were ready to open an argument day one after lunch. Wow, you know, and typically that's the way most trials go, you know you've already got your jury selection, then have lunch and then come back and away we go. But on the HALP trial it took all day and we started the following day on openings.
Speaker 5:Wow, and did they do like an individual by there? Yeah, kind of.
Speaker 3:They did a lot of that, more so when the HAL.
Speaker 5:When did they separate?
Speaker 3:them. Yeah, there was some separation. He split them up into groups and had a certain group come back at a certain time and there was a lot of white noise that day. He didn't want one witness hearing what another witness said and the reason why they'd form their opinion. Yeah, you know, I'll never forget. I was sitting in a jury trial one time and the old boy spoke up. When the judge asked him do you know the police officer? He said yeah.
Speaker 1:I know him.
Speaker 3:He said it's true, so you know, judges try to keep that blur from having an issue coming out. They try to control that.
Speaker 3:But yeah, I thought Judge Sam handled it very well. He put a lot of thought into it. You know he's a Nelson County guy. He loves Nelson County. He knows people are talking about his county. I thought he did a great job. I complimented him several times. We texted him today. He's a friend of mine now and I got a lot of respect for him. Lisa, she was getting ready to, she was on federal jury duty and she knows she was making big bucks.
Speaker 5:Yeah, what did I make? $20? No, it's. It's $80, right, it'd be good just to get a job as a federal jury.
Speaker 3:She was there and they were like do you know any of the prosecutors here? Well, I know the USAA there, I know him and I know the witness. I mean, it was prison but they're like, well, how do you know? Well, I went to high school with him and that's my cousins.
Speaker 5:Yeah, well, when you went, to high school, did you all? I was like. They were really like did you all date or did you get personal stuff? Yeah, they study. I mean both sides study.
Speaker 3:They get on Facebook account. They try to get an idea for what you're thinking. They do their due diligence. I just never get. I've never even, I've never been called to jury baby you will.
Speaker 5:I've got the letter from the feds. I have too.
Speaker 3:And did all the questionnaire stuff, and I would love to do it. Actually I think it would be.
Speaker 5:I think I told Drew today. I said if I had to sit on a jury that I would want to be on the grand jury. Yeah, that's where you get the most. To me it's quick too.
Speaker 3:Yes, it is Mama. You got any other questions?
Speaker 4:I think you've covered a lot.
Speaker 5:I think you've done great, uh oh chief going to chime in for those that don't know what's the motive that he had the, or a theory that maybe the only thing that was ever coming out was he made a couple statements that he wouldn't lose Eli.
Speaker 3:Okay, I think the thinking was, if he separated from Crystal, that she'd get custody of the kid and he'd never see him again. I'm saying by now he's probably wishing he'd have went to child support.
Speaker 4:Yeah, Was she not? She was suspecting him of courting on her or cheating on her, correct?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't know that never really came out. I don't know that never really came out. I don't know. I mean I don't.
Speaker 1:I don't really, I don't think I know she was.
Speaker 3:I don't know if that's good she was the bookkeeper for his operation and there's been some allegation that maybe he had some corrupt stuff going on. I don't know. That's never been proven. That proven, that's what they brought up in the podcast. I think she overheard some conversations between the brothers that might have had to do something with something else. That's what I suspected.
Speaker 4:Maybe she knew something more than what anybody knows.
Speaker 3:She knew Nobody spoke in sentencing for Brooks or Joy Lawson. The verdict was delivered and I saw no emotion from the mama. The sister was a little taken back, but not Her husband sat there and shoot his gun, you know, and I mean.
Speaker 5:Do you think it's plausible, somewhere down the road, that Mama and them could be?
Speaker 3:I mean it's plausible, I think. I think it's easy.
Speaker 1:There's none of that in co-conspirators now.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:And they're still investigating those other murders, so I don't know.
Speaker 3:I mean, you know, I don't know. I don't want to say for sure, I don't want to say I'm in the know, I give an opinion, like you all do I just love for there to be for that, for everybody involved, for jason, his family, uh, for those two, uh, the mother daughter. I just want, I just like to have some justice done and some resolve.
Speaker 5:So that's all I got.
Speaker 3:What a great insight. Probably put people to sleep.
Speaker 4:No, this is fun Very interesting, very interesting, and you being there, you actually witnessing a security in the courtroom. You know, because none of this was televised, none of this, you know you had reports.
Speaker 3:But you know, and I'm partly the blame on that, because I was on, I was in judges ears.
Speaker 3:I think that's probably you know he cited some other reasons, which I'm fine with, and but I told him just let's not allow no cameras in the courtroom. And he said, darren, I've never not allowed that to happen. I said I understand that, but let's just on this one. And then he did. He told them and the media followed him and he said this has turned into a circus. I've never seen anything like this. I think he testified or not testified. I think he quoted in his hearing that he had been involved in something like over 10,000 cases and he said I've never seen one rise to the level of circus that this one has rose to.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it could have easily turned into OJ Simpson type of deal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, let's not let the people know who the witnesses are or who the victims are.
Speaker 3:Let's keep that, as I mean I know it's public record eventually, but while it's happening, let's. And you know it did kind of take the wind out of the sails of the media. I learned a lot about the media during that time because there were no big trucks sitting outside. You know they would get, they would get uh, pictures of the lobby and the courtroom as it was empty, for reference, and then they you'll like this story and we can end with this. But they had a sketch artist come in and you know I guess I'm kind of a weirdo, I thought it'd be pretty cool to have a sketch artist come in and you know, I guess I'm kind of a weirdo, I thought it'd be pretty cool to have a sketch artist of McGraw-Mee you know I'm going to record baby. I thought it'd be pretty cool. Dude, I'm going to hurt you and me and McGraw-Mee and I'm like, oh, painting, like one of your French girls.
Speaker 5:You know, she was a Titanic. She was a Western student.
Speaker 3:And I guess I'm sure she got paid handsomely for her services because a lot of those news outlets they paid her, I'm sure, so they could have reference when they were talking about who testified. About midway through the first week I went up to her and I said, hey, would you draw me? I mean, this poor girl, this poor girl ain't got no personality, she's all business and she wouldn't draw. And she had a book up in front of her face like she wouldn't pay attention to the most historic trial in Kentucky in the last 30 years, so she's.
Speaker 3:I said hey, would you consider drawing me? She said I only draw important, you know. So she's, I said. I said hey, would you consider all me? She said I only draw important people so I said he's that old there that I used to think he's kind of important now my mind goes back to that moment.
Speaker 3:You know well, I'm not important. You go up to Kings Island and you'll be important to somebody there for about 20 bucks. I'll wear my bailiff uniform, I'll get an action photo, but yeah, that's sure enough. She said you're not important so I don't want to draw important people. And you know what? She didn't even laugh when she said it.
Speaker 3:Little tidbits of that I processed really uh, huh okay thank you, man, that I processed really Uh-huh, I really am Okay. Thank you, man, have a safe day, oh my gosh, but yeah it's been good hanging out with you all. All right, the next one. This has been great. Hey, I love these. Yeah, man, let's do it.
Speaker 2:You know I'll tell you what I love.
Speaker 3:I don't know what will be bigger. The next one coming? You, you know, I don't know wild trial. When's it expected? Well, you know, he uh, I haven't heard. He was due to have his competency hearing on june the 27th and judge cobran felt like it'd be two, three, four weeks before he got word and he said he would let me know because the initial hearings will take place in whitesburg. Yeah, but I know there will be a change of menu. Feel like there will, do you think?
Speaker 5:they'll move it all the way to Bowdoin Green. I don't know If you move them all the way. That's a four-hour drive.
Speaker 1:The only reason.
Speaker 3:I said Bowdoin Green and I should clarify I don't have any inside information for anybody that's listening. The only reason I said Bowdoin Green? Because you've got Jackie Steele as the prosecutor and you've got Jeremy Bartlett as the defense attorney, and that's where they moved Logan's trial. Yes, so I'm just assuming that they would be okay with that venue location and it's a good place to have a trial. You've got plenty of hotels, it's a good courtroom, you've got good security.
Speaker 2:Neutral ground.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and you've got places to eat, so it's a good town to have. Now I don't know, that's just my opinion. Yeah, I haven't heard anything. Judge coran hasn't said where it's going to be. But the judge coran, he's a good man. He'll do a great job, he'll manage it appropriately and we'll see what happens.
Speaker 1:That'll be coming soon, yeah that'll be a wobble Interesting. Another big trial.
Speaker 3:Coming up Whitley County, you remember the zip tie case. You know where the three people were found murdered with a zip tie around their throat and just zip tied to death and bound. That's going to trial. That guy was ruled incompetent to stand trial so it'll be a bench trial and that's coming up.
Speaker 1:That's coming up this fall and Judge Winchester has asked, has asked us to come down and assist, so maybe maybe I can come in and give you some insight on that that'd be, that'd be a, that'd be a wild way, and there was, like a teenage boy that was killed in that one man, that was just awful.
Speaker 3:I mean that was awful. Yeah, look at them. But anyway, we'll see what happens. We've got a lot going on, there's enough wisdom at this table, excluding me to run a small country. That's just what I'd say.
Speaker 2:Straight into the ground, all hearts and minds clear. All right, catch us on the next one, outro Music.