Jest Out of Jurisdiction
Law Enforcement / First Responder stories and experiences with a focus on comedic blunders, events, and the lighter side of stressful jobs. Stories are firsthand accounts told by the hosts Flash and T-Dot with accompanying guest interviews.
Jest Out of Jurisdiction
Nuclear Depths: Life on a Fast Attack Submarine
Ever wonder what it's like to spend months underwater in a nuclear submarine during the Cold War? In this riveting conversation, Navy veteran Paul Baker takes us beneath the surface of submarine life, sharing firsthand experiences from his decade serving as a torpedo man's mate on both fast attack and ballistic missile submarines.
Paul's stories transport us to a world few civilians ever glimpse – from the claustrophobic quarters where sailors "hot bunk" to the nerve-wracking cat-and-mouse games played with Soviet submarines in Russian waters. With remarkable candor, he explains how these vessels operate, revealing fascinating details about nuclear weapons capabilities, clandestine spy missions, and the psychological challenges of extended underwater deployments. The brotherhood formed hundreds of feet below the surface creates bonds that last decades, as evidenced by Paul's continued reunions with his submarine crewmates.
Music. I hope it got that. I'm not going to go ahead and have it cut it.
Speaker 3:We've not had any like. Oh my gosh, I peed all over myself moments in a while. Yeah, we need a good Travis pee story.
Speaker 2:All right guys, Welcome back to another episode. Travis is in the mood.
Speaker 3:Dying to know some stuff from our guests, maybe yeah.
Speaker 2:So we've had I don't know. Most of our episodes have ended up with some kind of pee story, from Travis peeing in sandbags, peeing on his wife, you know, peeing in the bed.
Speaker 3:So it's kind of a running joke at this point I'm going to try not to tell any, but you never know, if it goes that direction, I've got plenty more. So we'll see. So we're running. If it goes that direction, I've got plenty more, so we'll see.
Speaker 2:So we're running this episode from a new location. We're.
Speaker 3:Station 2 now.
Speaker 2:Station 2. We're trying it out so we'll see how it goes in this room. It's kind of a work in progress. We've got a great guest for you tonight. We're going out of the realm of police and everything, going into the military. He'll be our first, I guess, full military guest. He's actually some of my family he's married into, and so welcome our guest, paul Baker. Glad to have you on, thank you. So, paul, tell us a little bit about yourself. Well, the.
Speaker 5:I born in Dayton, ohio, families from Manchester, kentucky, and and then, like everybody else, moved to Ohio for jobs after you know Korean War or whatever.
Speaker 5:then this night I wound up coming back to southeast Kentucky, in Clay County, and finished up the fourth grade through high school, which I graduated in 1982 from Clay County, and then that's where I shortly there. That's when I joined the navy, the submarine service, and I had served on three nuclear-powered submarines and I did a tour, a three-year, four-year tour, as a training instructor to a submarine training facility, charleston. Uh and uh my rate. On the submarine I was a torpedo man's mate first class, so I'm responsible for the ship's ordinance torpedoes, power techniques, small arms, ammunition, then the ship's torpedo tube launching system, flood and drain, hydraulics, high-pressure air, those types of things. And some of my collateral duties in the Navy was as a firearms instructor and a training instructor and some other little things. Did my 10 years that I was put out on disability.
Speaker 5:Then, in January of 94, I finally got hired on at the federal prison in Manchester, okay, okay, which, and I did 20 years there and I geez, I, this is I did not just show up and do my eight hours and go home. I was a little more, you know, because here's the thing Once you're in the submarine service it programs you to don't stop learning. You always, always, keep going, keep going. You always work to the next step, and so I kept that. And so with the Bureau of Prisons, I get in there and anything and everything that comes available. I jumped on it. I spent 19 years there as a firearms training instructor as well and a correctional services training instructor. I would teach new staff the correctional techniques stuff before they went to Glencoe. There's a three week indoctrination you go through and I would do the correctional services part of that along with other people.
Speaker 2:Is that down in Flet in Georgia?
Speaker 5:yeah, they were kind of like teach you a little bit. Look, this is what's gonna go on in flat seat kind of like a gentleman's course top.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's why you're getting ready to go.
Speaker 5:Yeah, they kind of give you an idea, and I did a farms training stuff, the training instructor there I was oh what a crap. I spent about five years on the Affirmative Action Committee. I was a selective placement program manager, you know, for people with disabilities, the ADA and things, american Disabilities Act, compliance stuff. I was an equal employment I can't say equal employment opportunity counselor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a mouthful.
Speaker 5:I would do say somebody say sexual harassment stuff, they would go first. You have to go first, you have to go through your processes, lowest level first, which would be an EEO counselor, and if that didn't work then it would go to the next step. And the next step Is this for inmates or employees Employees Okay. Holy crap. What else did I do? Yes, I probably did more than I should have but I didn't like I said, being a sub-main service fault me or ruined me?
Speaker 5:I don't know if you it set the bar high standards, to keep achieving high standards. No matter what I did, wherever I went, it's what I did yeah and never settled, I never settled, I never never settled for. This is not. I kept on going and going, and going and going and then I did. Well, I think I had about 12 years in and I got tired of the correctional stuff. I can't blame you. There I went.
Speaker 5:I went five years in Unicor at the factory so I did five years in the factory where we made battle dress uniforms, the Gore-Tex rain pants and that type of stuff. It was a good thing and a bad thing. The good thing it was a Monday through Friday, off weekends and holidays, but that's kind of like that. It wasn't my cup of tea. My cup of tea was corrections being in their sewing machine and it wasn't my stuff. So they started doing a reduction of force in Unicor and the warden invited me to come back to custody. I said okay, I understand. She kicked my chair as she walked by. You know what I mean.
Speaker 5:Come back to custody, alright, I got you. Then, eventually was promoted to lieutenant after that chair. She walked by. You know what I mean. Yeah, come back to custody, all right, I got you. Then, uh, eventually was promoted to lieutenant after that. Okay, then that's, I did my time, I retired, I did my 20 years. January of 2014, I retired with 20 years for the bureau of prisons, 10 years navy. So I have 30 years retirement and, uh, I doing okay, I think yeah.
Speaker 3:I would say so, you lied, he is part of.
Speaker 4:LA. Yeah, I did lie.
Speaker 3:I'm very curious. So what year did you join the Navy then?
Speaker 5:January of 83.
Speaker 3:So you went up to do everything in Illinois. I went to boot camp in Great Lakes in the middle of January of 83. So you went up to they do everything in Illinois. I went to boot camp in Great Lakes in the middle of January and February, and cold, I mean cold. Say it was nasty Cold. So from there boot camp was, it was cold, but no problems there.
Speaker 5:Then went to sub school around Connecticut Stuff like that, yeah.
Speaker 3:So that how long was sub school? Five weeks, five weeks, and but I mean, I'm sure going to the fleet then was eye opening because you see that thing.
Speaker 5:When I reported on board we had this, what we call the command master chief, what we call the chief of the boat, the cob. You always see these Navy shows on the submarine the cob.
Speaker 3:You know, he's a senior enlisted guy if you watch like Top Gun and stuff like that, the cob's always up there with the XO or the CEO.
Speaker 5:He's a senior enlisted guy over he's a liaison between the XO, the captain and the enlisted people Okay. I'm in there washing dishes doing my time in the kitchen. He was a good big old boy from Georgia.
Speaker 4:He come by and he said Baker.
Speaker 5:Yes, cobb. He says you know how you doing. I said I'm doing. Okay, cobb, all right, good, good, good. He said navy, you know the navy today. It's not just a job, that's an adventure. I said yeah, god. Yeah. He said you went to school and everything. Yes, carl, you went to all that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, that's the adventure part, he said. He said now, boy, you're on this. Now, you're, boy, you're on the sub. Now it's time for the job part. Get to work. Alright, it's amazing how many.
Speaker 3:I was like my MOS when I when I got out to the marine fleet it was, you know, I was at first. I was it's kind of weird because it's down time so I was a motor transport moved but ended up in a combat engineer. I did, um, I was a vehicle recovery guy so operating cranes, and then our shop was not always operating cranes because we did. We had some vehicles so I ended up doing hazmat, pulling the engines, loading. I was like all this other stuff but I thought my primary, you know MOS was swabbing decks and doing field days, just pick it up, sweeping.
Speaker 4:Sweeping.
Speaker 3:Or buffer tech Buffer. I was a buffer tech a lot too. So, yeah, but that you know, until you get like E4 or corporate or something NCO. I was like man, I know my job.
Speaker 5:I'm swabbed to death well, I got a buffer tech story for you. I want to hear one. Yes, well, when I went to shore duty as a training instructor this is for people that's primary E6 and above E6 and E7 it's with you. You know what I mean. This is okay. You've done your time on the boat. Now you've got a shore duty to hopefully relax and get some downtime.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 5:Well, on shore duty, we had these civilians that come in at nighttime that took care of the buffing the floors and this and that you know what I mean Did all that stuff? Well, okay, you need to save money. Guess how they save money.
Speaker 5:Put the sailors' work On shore duty duty we had when I first started out, first year or so. There we was. In what 30 section duty? I mean every 30 days you had to come in and stand duty in the building, make rounds, make sure the place isn't burning down. Security patrol. You know well, they got the bribe and they let these sailors run these high-speed buffer techs and buff and wax these floors on. On what? On weekends? On weekends. So happy about it? Yeah, all right. So we went from a 30-day section to a 15 sex. Now we had to ask every 15 days we had to stand watch this why? Because then every time you come in, if you had duty on a saturday you spent. You don't even come and do your watches. You come in and have to come in for spending four hours on a saturday. You'd be stripping a section of floor or sealing it and waxing and buffing high speed buffer. Oh, my goodness, they were people talking about po, people that were e6 is kind of. Here we are buffing floors.
Speaker 3:Come on, man, you know this is, uh, this is private work. So I I uh, I remember my first, you know, I got promoted to e4 and I was like, fired up, you know getting the blood stripe and the marines getting that, you know getting the nco stuff, and I was like man, I've made it. First thing. The sergeant that came up he was like, hey, I got plans tonight. You're the new corporal, so you got barracks duty tonight. You're the NCO in charge on that.
Speaker 3:And I was like this is a Friday, he's like it's Saturday. I had it the weekend. It was like it was, uh, you know, this is a friday, he's like it's saturday. You know, I had it the weekend. It's like friday night, saturday night, sunday maybe. I think he came in and relieved me on sunday and he was like good luck. And it was like a holiday weekend, yeah, like when wild lot, st patty's day or something when marines get buck wild, anyway, on any weekend, but especially St Paddy's. And I was just like, oh, that wouldn't trial my fire. I was like, are you kidding me? I was like, well, I'm going to have to shoot my way out of here. I was like, and then, like you know, that was just the barracks. Then you had the head. You know the guy over guy over the staff, nco that was over the battalion he was coming in. He's like you, better get it together, devil dog.
Speaker 4:I was like I'm ready to take my chevrons off. He's like I'm going to party.
Speaker 3:It was just wild because he knew what was coming, it was just his draw. He's like I got a rookie here. I was like, yeah, knew what was coming, it was just his draw, and he's like I got a rookie here. So I was like, yeah, I'll do it. Oh my gosh, that's what threw you under the bus. It's horrible, but it's all the extra duties that you can do your job. It's the extra stuff that just drove you crazy. You're like, oh my gosh, I can't believe all this stuff.
Speaker 5:But yeah, tell us more about this sub stuff, because you're the first person I've ever met that went All right. All right, let's go back to this good old boy from Georgia, the chief of the boat, the Cobb. When I was doing my onboard check-on with him, he was giving me the riot act on checking onboard the boat. He said boy, he says I hate a thief. He was giving me the riot act on checking on board the boat. He said boy, he says I hate a thief. He said boy, we got a thief on board here and if I catch this thief? He said well, boy, you know what he said. You know we got some pretty steep ladders in here. You know up and down. You know I hate for someone to fall on them ladders and really get hurt. You know I hate. You know you take a shower and you slip in a bar. You know I hate for somebody to slip and fall on a ball, a ball, a bar of soap.
Speaker 1:That'd really be bad you know, you know, you know what I'm saying there. Boy, you get my drift.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I get your drift. You know these bumps. You're allowed to roll over and seas and roll over on a bed and you might fall and hit your head on the way down. You know that'd be bad. You understand, you get my drift. There, boy, I'll get you a drift I ain't a thief. All right, I got you. I got you.
Speaker 3:Man, I bet it was a total different style of justice. When you're underneath the water it is Way far out, it is, it is.
Speaker 2:I couldn't imagine how long was a sub deployment like how long would you all be?
Speaker 5:it really depend on your mission. It can be a week or it can be 90 days.
Speaker 2:Okay, I can't imagine spending a day if you was in the g.
Speaker 3:Gulf or something like that, and you was always attacked. I mean the fleet, like the carrier group, the sub was probably somewhere close or somewhere out there.
Speaker 5:Okay, here's something for you to think about. Guys, for every one carrier, there's at least two fast attack submarines underneath, or somewhere. For every one carrier, there's at least two fast attack submarines underneath, or somewhere. For every one carrier, there's two fast attack submarines underneath for security. Yes, okay, so if there's two aircraft carriers, you're going to have four fast attack submarines patrolling underneath for security. Yeah, okay, that's something people don't know.
Speaker 3:You don't know. I didn't know that. You don't think about that. I always knew. I mean I knew that there was when the carrier group went out. Yes, I knew that. You know frigging, I mean whatever resupply all that went with them.
Speaker 5:There can be what Two submarines okay, there's a whole lot to that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean there's a reason I never did a float. I wish I kind of would have like a med float or something, but I never did. But then I'm probably like I'm glad I did, because what the Marines wrote on were not that.
Speaker 5:Well, I saw a few Marines with a lot of Sea Service stars on their ribbons.
Speaker 4:You know, you get stars for multiple.
Speaker 5:I've seen a lot of young staff sergeants with a lot of stars, more stars than I've seen with sailors. I was like my God, guys, I couldn't imagine. You get stars on your Sea Service ribbons.
Speaker 3:What was it like the first time you you get in there and you're, you're, you're, you're on top, like when they hear, when you hear dive. What was that like?
Speaker 5:thank goodness, thank goodness, you know you well. First of all, a submarine is round. Yes, yeah so going down the river. You're tossing back and forth you're just.
Speaker 5:You're just a soda can tossing back and forth, back and forth down the river and the further you go, the worse it gets, and we have to be in 10,000 fathoms of water before we can dive. That way, if something goes wrong, we go down, we stay down, we're not coming up. That's the reason for that. So you have to be out deep enough and it, you know, to a certain point and charleston, it's not too bad. But you, after a while, you're like when we're going to dive, and you hear that dive and you're like thank god, because once you get down in the water it smooths out, it's smooth.
Speaker 5:Yes, that's where it belongs. All right, it's streamlined to run on the water.
Speaker 3:I never thought about that if I've been pinched, crazy yeah if you're the longest.
Speaker 5:I'm up top, I'm okay, breathing fresh air and I see it, but when you're down below you don't see, cuz you don't see nothing moving, you just everything. You not this, but only in the one boat I was on at the pewter and we'd have these chain hoists hanging down, two of them, and that'd be the only thing. The chain hoists. Wait a minute, the chain hoists never moved. It was a submarine moving around those chain hoists hanging you know what I mean. Right, it was that submarine pivoting around those chain hoists.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh. I was like I wish I could climb up that chain and just be still yeah.
Speaker 5:And I can remember at 400 feet, I think at 400 feet, we were taking like five degree rolls. At 400 feet we got to 150 feet, we was taking like 10 degree rolls. At 150 feet, we got to 150 feet, we was taking like 10 degree rolls at 150 feet it was nasty bad, that's, yeah, I would.
Speaker 5:I would have been yeah, it'll be talking about well, we did a, we did a, we pulled into st croix, virgin islands and we came out of there and we just come back across and we couldn't be some risk or we was in another submarine's hop area, it's all right. So we and it was rough. So there was three days of no food being served. It was too dang rough. You went to the mess decks and if you can eat peanut butter and crackers or sardines, it's what you ate, but you know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Usually put they didn't want to clean it up.
Speaker 5:They're like, yeah, we're good, couldn't cook, or no, we can cook, no ways, nobody was hungry anyway, couldn't nah, it'd be like, yeah, we're good nah, I'm okay, give me some cracker peanut butter, I'll be out between between C6.
Speaker 3:I bet that. I bet that. I bet that old salty dogs are up there like you, bunch of rookies.
Speaker 5:I've seen some old salty dogs get sick at that dog yeah there's no way screw that. The Dramamine patch makes things worse. Dramamine pills make it worse.
Speaker 3:I tried we we cruised and got in high seas from from Boston to Bermuda and there's no patch, no peel that can. I was like when you're walking down a hallway and you end up bouncing off this side and that side.
Speaker 5:I was just like I got to get this. You just lean up against it and Hopefully you don't have no doorway. You just kind of slide. You just roll down it you just lean up against the wall and kind of use it to hold you up.
Speaker 3:It jacked me up for about a week after I got home from that and then flying when I got home I felt like I was still moving, driving home.
Speaker 5:I would come home and almost fall out of the shower Because I was still taking a shower. I'm still wobbling around in the shower Just thinking I need to wobble around to keep my balance, but I don't, right you get sea legs on the shore. That's it Sea legs on the shore. You're right, absolutely Wow.
Speaker 3:It's not a good feeling.
Speaker 2:I don't know we went deep sea fishing one time. Well, twice, same outcome both times.
Speaker 4:But the first time, yeah, the first time we had bad choppy seas.
Speaker 2:When we got out there and I got so sick and they gave me the Dramamine and what you were saying it makes it worse, Absolutely.
Speaker 3:If you can go to sleep, that's the best. It just turned everything into foam. I was just thinking Foam.
Speaker 4:Seafoam everything into foam.
Speaker 3:I was just thinking it's like a sun's machine. How fast when you're on top, how fast do them things cruise then?
Speaker 5:Maybe 12, 15 knots. Oh, that's so slow.
Speaker 3:It is slow.
Speaker 5:That'd be like a teardrop submarine is made to run faster than a submersion is on the surface Right Now. The World War II submarines were V-hull. A World War II submarine was pretty much a frigate with a sealed top on it, made to submerge. So it had a V-hull so it would have run faster and longer. It was a battery boat anyway, a diesel boat, diesel yeah. So they would run 90% of their time on the surface. Then, once you found a contact, then they would surge and go batteries to attack, because it ran slower underneath, faster on top because of the V-hole.
Speaker 3:Very interesting. How long can these nuclear subs stay submerged?
Speaker 5:As long as you've got food. That's amazing to me. As long as you've got food, food, food's the biggest drawback. Make your own water and make your own oxygen.
Speaker 2:I didn't know that yes, so as long as I mean, your weakest link is your food supply and that's it your food and your crew's health, as long as you stay healthy.
Speaker 5:That's it, oh wow.
Speaker 3:I couldn't imagine, because I you know living in barracks and stuff. When somebody got stripped, everybody got stripped. If somebody got the you know stomach bug, it was just run this course. Flu, whatever. I would imagine that it wouldn't be the same. I bet that. I bet that a sub was even faster not too bad, you're always together anyway.
Speaker 5:You're still there, working together every day.
Speaker 3:By that time, if it already passed or something, you're pretty healthy.
Speaker 5:The biggest problem is your teeth, because teeth will get you off of a submarine quicker than a kidney stone. Really, yeah, why is that there's no dentist? We only have a corpsman? Really yeah, why is that there's no dentist? We only have a corpsman.
Speaker 4:That's all we have.
Speaker 2:That's all we got is a corpsman, so a toothache would send you back up. Yes, it would.
Speaker 5:A corpsman can't get it pulled deep With a pair of pliers.
Speaker 3:So give me some teeth yeah.
Speaker 5:You're a bad dental wreckers in your kidney, your kidney stones.
Speaker 3:Keep you off of I'm sure Well. I had no idea.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I worked a handgun there for a corpsman the other day. We may have to pick his brain a little bit Corpsman especially when they're signed.
Speaker 3:They're the best friends that you could ever have, especially Iorman, especially when they're signed. They're the best friends that you could ever have, especially, I mean, they did everything. The Marines, they went through a crazy boot camp with us too. So that it's they were. They're good. My father-in-law's he was on carrier groups. He retired Navy. He did 22 years and he was always on carrier. So I wanted to have him on there talking about what the difference is. Absolutely yeah, but I could imagine being like for a long deployment in such confined spaces.
Speaker 2:I think, yeah, the claustrophobia would get me.
Speaker 5:I think I would that's see like sub school things like that. Yeah, the claustrophobia would get me, I think. See, like sub-school and things like that, you're being watched a lot.
Speaker 5:To see how you're going to handle it. A lot of eyes are watching you all the time. They put you through these training scenarios to see how you're going to react and if you're going to wig out in school, yeah, you're gone, yeah, and still. Then you get people, get to the boat and they, they still watch you. That's, this is let's get it, and what I'm thinking. Let's start. Hey, let's talk about hazing for a minute. Sure, all right, because did they? They didn't have hazing when you was in the marine corps. They dropped that hazing they wanted to.
Speaker 3:I mean, we got her, we took our licks here and there the blood panion.
Speaker 5:Well, on a submarine, particularly hazing serves a purpose and if you got somebody that's gonna wig out, you didn't want to wig out. When you're winging feet in the mission on the water and you're out on a mission somewhere, you don't want somebody to wig out yeah, because they start hollering and screaming and we can hear that they might take a ring start beating and you gotta. You know now you're being detected. You're being so to help wash people out. Hazing served that purpose of getting these people washed out.
Speaker 5:That we're going to wig out because you don't want these people to wig out during an emergency or something happens If somebody wigs out, that can be a loss of life. Yes, okay, and the ship too.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 5:So that's very important. It did serve that purpose and during that time, on the submarine for hazing, they get rid of the undesirable. Not the undesirables, but the people that just can't, couldn't have stress. All right yeah.
Speaker 3:Probably a lot more stress inoculation. See if you've got what it takes under here and put the pressure on you.
Speaker 5:Well, it's like what boot camp was originally for. Now in the Navy boot camp in 90 they started having stress cards oh yeah, I remember saying they wear gym shoes now at boot camps. What are you doing? So boot camp was also a way to wash people out yes, if they cut the mustard.
Speaker 3:It's not you can't, you can't be If they cut the mustard. If you're welcome, you got to, you got to. It's not you can't be.
Speaker 2:I've heard they're talking about bringing the shark attack back, and I'm okay with that. I mean that doesn't?
Speaker 3:You have to check and see if you got it. Will you stress out and run it? Will you jump up out of a foxhole and run a fighting position? Will you give away your? And it's just about saving lives. That's really all it is. Can you maintain discipline when? Because they can't shoot you?
Speaker 2:When the crap's hitting the fan.
Speaker 3:Like a DI, a drill instructor or somebody. They can't shoot you or shoot at you. They just can't. So what do they do? They add distress. And the only way you can do that is raise voice and PT, run you to your you know and yell and bring your heart rate up and then have you do drills or do something you know that adds that see if you can perform.
Speaker 5:Just hazing to be a bully is one thing, but hazing to check you see if you've got what it takes to make it. Make sure you know, and it no.
Speaker 3:It's not being a bully, nothing about being a bully, it's all about yeah it's not about isolation, because when they put you on a quarter deck and pt you, you throw up. There's a reason. It is about seeing if you can gut out. You made a mistake or whatever, or I was just in the area of somebody that got in trouble. It's not about me personally, it's a gut check and see if I've got what it takes to be a Marine, if I've got what it takes to submerge in a on a submarine in the navy. It's all it's about. It cannot. Can I go through a, an sf, and I knew I couldn't. I just didn't have that mentality in the gut.
Speaker 3:I could probably, you know, physically, probably not now, you know now back then maybe yeah, but I just didn't have that desire to go to recon school or anything like that. And if I would have, it would have just been, they would have washed me out because it just wasn't what I wanted to do that's true you know, but that's where they find it
Speaker 4:they find?
Speaker 3:or why are you here? Do you really want this, or what did it look cool and you want to join up, so that's the difference and that's difference.
Speaker 2:I see no issue with that. You've got to figure it out. It's just like that in the police academy too. Our police academy is pretty more. They try a little bit, but it's not. It's basically a gentleman's course too.
Speaker 3:State police have implemented that. I think they still do. They're tougher. I think they still do, yeah, they're tougher.
Speaker 2:But you know, you've got to find out. I would rather find out that this is not for me in a controlled environment rather than to find out this is not for me when somebody else's life is on the line.
Speaker 5:Because if you've got, a state trooper that's going to the academy and he's got a DI in his brims, in his forehead. What's he going to do when he's down in the car in the street and he pulls somebody over and they start doing the same thing down the street? What are they going to do?
Speaker 3:alright, exactly, I think we're seeing. The go hard academy will help you on the street to maintain your cool discipline yes with law enforcement.
Speaker 2:You got to kind of ride that line because you can't. I mean you've got to be. You can't back down but, you also don't want to escalate to the point you're yeah, you know violating civil rights.
Speaker 3:So how many? You said you did three. How many deployments did you do on on or different groups? Well, I was on three submarines. Okay, multiple.
Speaker 5:I was on one. My first submarine was a fast attack. Then I went to two ballistic missile submarines.
Speaker 3:After that that's got to be a different world, different worlds.
Speaker 5:A fast attack, a seek and destroy, yes. And the SSBN is a go down, lay low and wait for launch orders to launch these missiles to Armageddon, yes, okay.
Speaker 3:I bet that was a. What was the difference, say, in the attitudes, like when you're Hunter Seekers or whatever that movie, I love that movie. When you're hunter-seekers or whatever that movie, I love that movie. If you're on that side, you're a hunt-destroy mission versus what's the?
Speaker 5:mindset Completely different. Completely, it has to be Completely different. I mean back when I was in on a fast attack submarine. The only thing I can explain being a fast attack is like being in a 1% motorcycle club yeah okay, that's what I figured. Like they're their own bad asses, you're on your own you see somebody out there tells you you need to get a haircut, you flip them to birds. They go screw you.
Speaker 5:But that's the way it is almost like the special forces of subs, probably on the water they're like excuse me, buddy, you know where I've been guaranteed now on a boomer submarine. It's on a fast stack submarine. You've got one crew. That crew's got that boat forever until people come. How many people? 130?
Speaker 2:hundred. All right, that's a lot.
Speaker 5:Well, that's the whole crew. No, not everybody. Go to see, see, so people stay back. Go to school vacation, okay, baby, leave whatever. Now, on the boomers, you have two crews. You got blue crew to go, crew I. This boat's designed to go out with these missiles, so it's designed to go out and stay out for three months with one crew, while the other crew stays back, goes to school, goes to training, r&r. You train four hours a day or disappear for four hours a day and go home. Right, all right, trust me, when I was on a boomer, all right, trust me, when I was on a boomer, I would be in Charleston, south Carolina, and a lot of times on a Thursday afternoon, thursday evening.
Speaker 5:I'd be right here in London, kentucky, on a Thursday afternoon. I'd be there until Sunday afternoon. We'd drive back to Charleston, all right.
Speaker 2:That's the way it was. That's not too bad of a gig. Not too bad of a gig.
Speaker 3:I'd say when it was, I'd say, when it was out, when you was on a mission. It was probably a different kind of world.
Speaker 5:Yeah, because on a fast attack they'll seek and destroy missions. You're out there doing things that people don't know about, because when you're not, a fast attack has two missions seek and destroy and espionage. So if you're not out there seeking and destroying, you're spying. You're spying, okay.
Speaker 3:You got to see where the other ones are.
Speaker 5:So I've done my spy mission. That's awesome. That's pretty cool. That is awesome. I've done my spy mission. That's awesome. That's pretty cool. That is awesome. I have done my spy mission. Yes, I have.
Speaker 4:Wow.
Speaker 3:How far away on those when you were running with carrier groups. How far away would you get from say, Well, I never was actually in a carrier group Okay, so you were all around.
Speaker 5:In a fast attack.
Speaker 5:So I mean, when I was on it, we, we was independent, we was you know doing, you know never, never the only time the only time we got involved, only time we ever did it with anything with carry, with a carrier, we just stopped doing some training. I think we did some training one time with the USS America, just training stuff, see if they can find us, and mostly all the time, see if they can find us, mostly all the time. See if they can find us, which they can't, no, but actually being part of a battle group never was. But I've been up in spy missions, I've been to places. I've been to Guantanamo Bay, cube on a fast-track submarine, okay, wow, it's kind of weird.
Speaker 2:But yeah, Now, I would imagine during that time Russia would be the big threat.
Speaker 3:oh yeah see, what's cool about that? See, I kind of thought all of them were kind of attached just in my own little pea brain. So that's why y'all were such badasses, because you were getting on them things and you all were. You were going out independently like we're saving you all. You just don't know we are here to save the world.
Speaker 5:That's awesome when we won our, when we won on our spying mission. You know, the captain's given orders to go, you're to go here and and they're called clandestine operations is what they're called. This captain is taking a submarine to an area and if he does something we get caught. He must have been doing something. He must have been going a little rogue or something.
Speaker 5:You know, what I mean. We don't know what he was doing. He was a rogue. He was trying to take this submarine and give it to you, little rogue or something. You know what I mean. We don't know what he was doing. He was a rogue. He was trying to take this submarine and give it to you. I guess you know what I mean. That's what they're going to say they're not going to back you.
Speaker 5:No, they're not right no, but this way we we were briefed duties and responsibilities as a POW. They send you like to Sears school and all that stuff. No, just right there in the mess text. Xoxo, this is what you're going to do. This is what you're going to say Wow, Because we were. I guess I can tell you this we were, you know, a Murmask. You ever heard of Murmask? Or Polly Arnie? No, ever heard of Murmask or Pagliardi, no Russian. Oh, is that like a yes.
Speaker 5:Up up. Yes, I've been there. Yeah, I've been right there off the coast of Murmask and Pagliardi. You know we would sit there on the mess decks and we had a little 19 inch tv up there in the corner of the mess decks and and uh, you know you got a dial switch on the periscope. Whatever that periscope looks at, you can dial a switch in that television the mess text to see what the periscope sees. So we sit there eating chow for a whole month, for a whole month up there, and sitting there eating chow for a whole month up there, and we was eating chow. We can see it, the periscope's watching and we're seeing land mass. We're seeing massive elevations of land mass. That means we were fairly close, which means we were closer than 10 miles from land Because of the elevation of the hills. Okay, we were a lot closer man that's awesome.
Speaker 3:So when you, you know, I know that, seeing some cool ports and doing pulling in and some cool places I can imagine pulling up like, yeah, there's, there's our enemy, right yeah?
Speaker 5:they probably had somebody when we, when we pulled into guantanamo bay, cuba, as we, as we were transiting in, there was a russian uh, cargo ship rust bucket coming out we we were, met him, we were, you know, our captain gets up there. He was like, if you're going to be on this boat, you better keep up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love that's the way he was so was there quite a bit like on the those those. Were they bigger or are they smaller?
Speaker 5:Yes, the fast attacks are smaller. Yeah. Then the boomers are bigger, of course, because they have the missile compartment. Yeah, the missile boats we're on had 16 missile tubes, jeez. So you get all this missile tubes there, and so that submarine is longer and stuff.
Speaker 2:Now, what kind of munitions would that be? Is that like that's probably nukes, nukes.
Speaker 5:One missile carries eight nuclear warheads. Okay, and there's 16. Well, you can carry up to 16 missiles and each missile can carry up to eight nuclear warheads. Jeez, jeez.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Okay that's on the menu. Yeah, that's the end of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's yeah. That book that I read the other day, where it kind of maps out what happens when somebody launches a nuke, that's one of those takes out of everybody else.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. Other day, when they bombed Iran and in the nuke, wasn't it the submarines fired off some shots, I think tomahawks, but that came off of subs.
Speaker 5:Yes, it did yeah, they take the older, not the ones, the boomers that I was on. They're gone now. They're all razor blades. Wow. So we're talking the Kentucky, the Ohio, florida, georgia, stuff like that. Go SEC right, right, they converted those boats to Tomahawk. So those missile tubes, those they were the Ohio class boomers. They also have more. They have 24 missile tubes, and their missile tubes are a little bit bigger too, I think.
Speaker 5:Hang on a second, I think, don't quote me on this, but I think maybe one missile tube can carry, I want to say eight tomahawks or something like that.
Speaker 4:Wow.
Speaker 5:Yeah, okay, so there's 24 missile tubes at eight tomahawks, okay.
Speaker 2:Now can those be fired from submersed?
Speaker 4:Yes, you can, that's wild.
Speaker 5:That's awesome so those are called SSGNs, guided whatever. If you see an SSGN, that's a guided missile. That's the tomahawks, okay, man, lots of tomahawks okay, and those Tomahawks can be nuclear as well. There's three different types of Tomahawks ones your conventional nuclear and a third one is a bomb, that's. They fly over airfields mm-hmm they can drop off bomb.
Speaker 5:It's never just pothole a runway Wow, I didn't even know that that's. Or if you've got tanks or airplanes laying there, they'd fly over because it has forward. The Tomahawks have forward vision looking radar and they'd fly over and then just drop bop, bop, bop, just pop airplanes or runways or tanks.
Speaker 3:They become like bombers. The bomb becomes a bomber. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, it's pretty neat, golly.
Speaker 2:That's like science fiction. Yeah, it is.
Speaker 3:I've read about these, tom.
Speaker 5:Clancy's. Well, tom see, being a torpedo man, that was stuff that I did was torpedoes, tomahawks, harpoons, and then, when I was in on my first fast, that fast attack, we had what's called Subrock, a submarine-launched rocket which had like a 10-megaton nuclear warhead on it. It was an anti-submarine depth charge. It would evaporate five square miles of water Gosh, and it only had a 30-mile range. So go figure, okay, 30 miles away, this thing is going to evaporate five square miles of ocean. So how is this back wave going to affect me? The blast zone, right? So what's the survivability of this blast zone or this nuclear weapon that is fired?
Speaker 2:I would imagine that vacuum filling back would create yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I bet that current If you were. I don't know how far the range is, but I would want to be hundreds of miles away. Yeah.
Speaker 4:But this sub-rock goes up into the atmosphere.
Speaker 5:It goes up into the atmosphere and then free falls down to you know Whatever depth it goes up into the atmosphere. It goes up into the atmosphere and then free falls down to you know, but it's only had 30 miles as far as it goes, even with its rocket launched, because most of that time is going up into the atmosphere and going across.
Speaker 3:That don't take that long, so you're already turning.
Speaker 5:Let's go. So we're shooting and turning around and going fast. We can't go the other way.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh, I'm so glad you didn't have to use that. No.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I'm glad I got rid of it. It was a pain in the butt.
Speaker 3:Man.
Speaker 5:What was your favorite deployment that you got to do? I'm going to have to say that time we went up north in 84. Yeah, the time we went up 84 and went up north, we did a little spy mission.
Speaker 3:That was very interesting.
Speaker 5:I bet that would, I would, I bet the whole puzzle factor was it was we got chased, we chased and we got chased and it was a bag of four. There was like three or four days there. You know, you know. Okay, how many stories you've heard about people tracking? Have you ever heard about tracking a bear?
Speaker 3:I've heard about it.
Speaker 5:When you track a bear eventually you'll come around to what your own footstep which means it's tracking you it's just trying to get the game it was back and forth Cat and mouse.
Speaker 2:It was back and forth, back and forth.
Speaker 5:Yeah, that's got to be scary Helicopter I mean a Russian helicopter up there spotted us, Because we were up there, yeah because if you had telescopes out, Well, our periscope was up. Periscope was on me. We spent 30 days with the periscope up 30 days straight running with the periscope up 30 days straight running with the periscope wow yes, looking and watching and recording. Looking and watching and recording. The periscope's got video cameras in it, film cameras, it's got everything that's where all those Loch Ness Monster videos came from.
Speaker 4:It's the periscope man. What was the day like where all those Loch?
Speaker 3:Ness monster videos came from. It was just a parent's episode, man. What was the deck like and the fuse up where they're at? I bet the intensity was different in there. Did you ever get to go up there where they were? You know, when they were the radios and the seminar?
Speaker 5:Oh yeah, that's pretty much after you get done, you, after you get done with your washing dishes and stuff crank we call it cranking, hey, crank you know hey crank, give me a refill.
Speaker 5:Yeah, uh, you know you do time the kids. And what's that purpose of that is? To get the crew gets to watch you. Yeah, so you're working in the kitchen for 90 days. You're new, brand new on the boat, so the crew gets to watch you. Yeah, so you're working in the kitchen for 90 days. You're new, brand new on the boat, so the crew gets to watch you how you work, how you react, and the crew gets a like hey, crank, give me a dessert. See, they're poking at you they're hazing you.
Speaker 5:They're already poking at you yeah hey, crank, give me a refill.
Speaker 5:blah, blah, blah. Hey, crank, you know what I mean. And they're teaching, they're testing you the whole time. You're being tested. Yeah, that's what's going on. Yeah, but after you do that, next thing you do, you're going to move up to what's called diving and driving. That's the driving. The submarine, okay, you'll see that looks like a cockpit on an airplane. Okay, that's your next. You move up to that. That's very interesting. The periscopes, the fire control. You're right there listening to everything going on. You're right there because you're driving that sucker. You're right there, you're right in the middle of it, driving it.
Speaker 5:You know what You're 19 or 20 years old. That's what you're doing. You're driving this daggone submarine around through here and there's all this stuff. Watch this.
Speaker 3:That's it, holy cow. I just think about some of the guys.
Speaker 2:I know how scary is that think about you at 19?
Speaker 3:oh, that's why I would never. I wouldn't qualify to be a submarine. My GT score wouldn't have been high enough to get in there.
Speaker 5:Then, once you learn some stripes, you need to go down and work on your division or whatever.
Speaker 3:How many levels?
Speaker 5:There's three levels. There's an upper middle and a lower. For most parts, what?
Speaker 3:deck was most of the sleeping quarters on. Does it depend?
Speaker 5:Bow compartment.
Speaker 4:Lower level.
Speaker 5:Yeah, down in the belly and down the way, down the belly underneath the control center of the belly. That's where the peterum is, the peterum's back in the belly where it's the longest we can have it and the widest Widest. Yeah, all right, bowel compartment, spirulina and stuff. There's only two levels in the bowel because it's smaller.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, now, did you all have to hot bunk it? Yes, we did, I was going to say Because it's 24-7. There's not enough box for everybody.
Speaker 5:So there's also there's temporary berthing in the torpedo room. You get these portable box, you strap them down in the torpedo reloads and you sleep in there. That's where where people come by and poke at you hey wake up, I'd imagine. You know, you get your dolphin shit done.
Speaker 2:You go ahead and get qualified. I would imagine there was all kinds of pranks going on. Yes, there is.
Speaker 3:What did they do when you crossed the equator?
Speaker 5:They shelled back you off. Oh yeah, we crossed the Arctic Circle.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's a different one. I've never heard of that. What do they do?
Speaker 5:Blue Nose. Oh, okay, I'm a Blue Nose, yeah, yeah. So when you go up north, you're going to cross the Arctic Circle and you're a Blue Nose. There's a ceremony for that Initiation, yeah.
Speaker 3:Drinking the truth serum. And what not see? I didn't know. I've always heard about the equidron in the south same concept yeah there's shell back and blue nose. Yeah, then there's the date line. Okay, I don't remember what that's called? Yeah, I've never. I think. I've just seen and heard my father-in-law talk about some of the just the things they had to do, just goofing off, really hazing really. It's good for them, good for character, excellent, absolutely character building it is a character builder hazing.
Speaker 5:Like I said, it gets rid of the ones that can't handle the pressure. If you're going to snap under pressure, man, these guys are going to go. That's awesome. I can't. I've saw a lot of that. I've saw a lot of guys get washed out officers too, I mean, doesn't matter. Like I said, this fast attack. I was on our captain. We had I seen him kick out a lot of 03 officers just because they just couldn't perform up to his standard. He'd come to his boat, he'd expect things done a certain way and he'd better do it that way or you're gone.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm sure the pressure that the captain I mean you all were the tip of, the tip of the spear.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And so there's a performance rating I'm sure that he was looking for and uh because he knew we were going to go on this run in 84.
Speaker 5:He knew this run was coming up. You know, we all knew, because as soon as I got there the other guys didn't know we're going to, this is our schedule, we're going to be doing this, so sudden, something we're going to be doing. I I never paid no attention to what they're talking about. This northern run thing. We call it a northern race.
Speaker 5:We're gonna go up north and sometime 84. Okay, it says 83. Okay, I'm okay. But then the cap, in the meantime he has to get his crew ready, all right, so if you come to his boat, because he didn't want to take you on a mission of critical mission, ryan, you be a want to take you on a mission, a critical mission, run.
Speaker 5:You'd be questionable about operating a submarine like he wants to. So if you can't operate a submarine like he wants to and we're going to go on a critical mission, run no, no, no. I don't like the way you get it. You've got to go.
Speaker 2:Not a whole lot of room for error on that type of mission.
Speaker 5:No, there's not. I've seen a lot that got washed out. It's one thing, I say other words, but it has to happen, yeah. I mean.
Speaker 4:I would want if I was on a sub and could handle it, which I couldn't.
Speaker 2:I don't think but, I would want to be surrounded by people who would also be able to handle it, so they didn't that's a whole thing. Yeah, would also be able to handle it, so they didn't jeopardize me. That's the whole thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I would imagine that that would be kind of contagious you know that, oh, that 03, that 0, 03, they would probably really succeed and go well on a, on a regular, you know, on a frigate or a boomer boat or missile so many because they.
Speaker 4:They're a whole lot different different, different.
Speaker 5:Yeah, yeah, you're, yeah, it's just a different, different concept when you're out as a hunter and being hunted because a lot of these old twos or threes, they will come from a boomer, where it's laid back or whatever. Then they come to a attack boat and this can't quite like. This ain't the way we did it on the way we did it on the used to fish. You know what I mean? Well, no, you know you need to learn how we do it here. If you can't learn how we do it here, you gotta go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, either adapt or get out, that's it. Yeah, that's, that's reasonable, I think, for that type of thing.
Speaker 5:Well, you remember you guys, you ever heard of old Mancuso, the guy that started up the SEALs team?
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 5:He couldn't run. He was fat, overweight, drank, partied. That's what he wanted out of the SEAL team. Mancuso wanted his SEAL team the same way. He wanted a bunch of partiers that could go out and party all night and run all day and go do the mission, come back and party again that night, all right he wanted a different, a different kind of freak yeah, just some, some an animal, almost like they can handle it.
Speaker 3:They can handle this and they can. Yeah, then they. They have quite the what is their retention Like? Are they graduating 30%?
Speaker 2:or something like that. It's crazy low, it's a high dropout rate.
Speaker 5:Yeah, so tough, it's hard and a lot of it's just mental.
Speaker 3:Yeah, a lot of them watch themselves the freak athletes that are Olympians.
Speaker 2:But I feel like that's something that you'd have to go into it with the mindset that this is the only thing that you'd have to want. That's the like you'd have to go into it with the mindset that this is the only thing that I want to do.
Speaker 3:It's the only thing I've ever wanted to do but I think a lot of them do and I'm going to do it a lot of them do, because if you've got a, backup plan.
Speaker 2:I feel like you're going to go eh.
Speaker 5:I'm going to go home, washout right here. They're gonna send you back to fleet ship and boat on an aircraft carrier. Oh yeah, okay that that's your motivation yeah I don't want to go to an aircraft carrier and ship paint yeah, I'm good yeah, that would be terrible yeah, I think they're going to aircraft carrier and wash dishes or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah one of the guys I work with has given him a hard time. He's in the marines, of course, I know which one, but that was uh he they was saying something one of the other guys was in the Navy and I was like, isn't the Marines a department of the Navy?
Speaker 3:and he's like yeah, it's the men's department, I pulled that. Until you say that to a corpsman, then, yeah, this guy's gonna hurt me, yeah or a SEAL.
Speaker 3:I'd say you know being a, you know military being around, you know a lot of Navy folks when I was in, so you're mostly corpsman and the medical staff, because Marines don't have medical and I've got nothing but good, I've pulled many of my teeth and all the doctorsers and stuff, but my corpsman I mean, I got dog bit one time. Man, they're the ones that stitched it, they're the ones that took care of me. I'm like man, these guys, these guys are awesome, how's so?
Speaker 3:you did your your shore patrol then, or shore duty that that had to be from being out there at the tip kind of like that it was a relief.
Speaker 4:I was going to say, was that welcomed or was that kind of like?
Speaker 2:ah, man, I'm going to be bored for a long time. No, that was okay. That was a good break.
Speaker 5:Right, it was it was, it was, but going back to a submarine after that was, that was rough. Yeah, after being on shore for a while and going back to a boat, it wasn't quite like the first time. Yeah, nah, okay, this sucks. Yeah, okay, alright, we gotta do this.
Speaker 2:Okay, let's go it's the first time, it would be exciting, yeah, but everything's new around you.
Speaker 5:Been around them, no it sucks is it like everything?
Speaker 3:like your, your primary MOS, I guess, was munitions or torpedo, but I'm sure you were. If they needed you to pick up a, come up here and do whatever you could do that.
Speaker 5:I mean they cross trained and everything. I was a calibration. Hang on, let me get this straight. I was a calibration technician. They sent me to school to calibrate gauges because in the pit room we got water gauges, we got hydraulic gauges, we got air gauges. Well, they all got to be calibrated. So they sent me to calibration school how to operate this King Neutronics calibration equipment. So I calibrated my gauges and put a little sticker on there and put the expiration date on it and my name and everything what I mean so take care of my own stuff.
Speaker 5:So I've done that. I've been to a little career counseling stuff. How to do divisional career counselor stuff free of troops, okay, you know yeah, trying to.
Speaker 3:I remember our career recruiter type guy. You know, you come in there and he's like well, our well, our battalion's lowest retention in the Marine Corps right now, yeah, and your next stops gonna be Okinawa. You ready, I'm getting out there goes your retention I was? I was a you know, stationed in San Diego and I knew I was gonna go somewhere. I was at.
Speaker 3:Camp Pendleton out there. I knew that it wasn't going to get to do another stint out there, but I was kind of hoping to go back to the east coast or something.
Speaker 2:I was like, yeah, here we go Okinawa and I just got married and I was like you want to go to Okinawa and she was like nope no, that's not good, so you wound up in London instead. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:She went to Okinawa.
Speaker 4:Terrible choice.
Speaker 3:But that was. I had such a good time, the friends I made.
Speaker 5:Oh yeah, that right there, it's worth everything. I just got back Sunday from a three-day reunion. Right from my first boat I was on. That's awesome, yeah, yeah, and I saw at least three guys. The last time I saw them was in 85.
Speaker 2:Wow cool, I didn't know that. I wouldn't think about, you know, boat crews having reunions?
Speaker 5:Oh, they do. I mean boat crews are tight, Boat crews got to be tighter than tight.
Speaker 3:You know I was. There was this reunion that was coming from our battalion. I was a seventh engineer out in san diego and this, this, uh, vietnam group was getting together and it was a saturday and I was so mad they met all week but they were doing their dog and pony thing on a saturday and my, my boss, came in. He's like hey, wash the truck, grease the tires, take that five ton out there and run it for the kids.
Speaker 3:You know, whatever, let them play all over it. So I did, you know. I went out there and do the wash rack, cleaned it, got it the best I could well where it was. I had to go through this mud pit to get turned around, so I and then them kids dropped like bags of chips everywhere on that thing so that next Monday they come in there and look at my truck and it was destroyed. It was a five ton or something. I was like they were like get in the office. And I was like they were like, did you not wash your truck? I was like yeah, yeah. I mean they were ready to nj baby.
Speaker 3:There I was like oh my god the kids have a house like kids
Speaker 5:I didn't need that big chips on. There. Yeah, the kids had a good time, as you can see.
Speaker 3:I mean we had a good time, the people. But I was like. They were like we told you to you know, make it show room ready. I said this truck's 25 years old. Yeah, I was like, and I had to run it through mud to get there. So it was like, oh my gosh, it never rains in California and it rained that day, but yeah, but those reunions are real special. You see them guys get together. Some of them are injured. That brotherhood never dies.
Speaker 4:I talk to my buddies.
Speaker 3:We're tight, you know it's, and when you lose one or something like that, it crushes you.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah and that's it that's a real brotherhood?
Speaker 3:it's not I mean it's not like I couldn't imagine how tight some of you got when you're, when you're underwater and out for a while.
Speaker 5:The practical jokes don't stop.
Speaker 3:I'd say not. I bet there was some great ones. I bet there were running jokes too Frozen pillows.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, I mean frozen pillows, which I guess there's only so much you have access to while you're down there, but I mean I can imagine you all got creative.
Speaker 5:The mind doesn't stop. You know what a lot of it. A lot of that. We do a trivial and the with that there be. I got there's a communication phone that's like a non this casual communication phone. We'll call back trivial question and what's this right about? Okay, you're gonna end with honey trivia question and what's this right? Okay, and you're going to end with you'd have questions and answers on this trivia stuff. That'd be the. Oh man, I've got to look this up.
Speaker 3:That's.
Speaker 5:We've got to keep your your key morale's got to be in there. The only thing you've got is a dictionary. We don't have no Google Right to Webster's Dictionary or a tag band or to look something. That's all you got. Had to get creative entertaining.
Speaker 3:Morale See morale is different when you're above water. I mean you can go like you can have the entertainment flown in, say if you was out at awards and all that.
Speaker 5:I wish we could have entertainment flown in, right? You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3:I don't know how many times I'd be out there and oh hey, chris LaDue's playing, you know back in the day, or hey, who's some of the people we got to go. I mean it was all. Tom a rodeo. You know, it wasn't even just the base stuff they would do movies.
Speaker 5:We would pack, you know, the real to real movies. We would pack case in a case in cases of old reel-to-reel movies and take them out. You know, see, for three months and, yeah, when we went up, when we went up that north, that northern run in 84, see, we left on August 28th of 84 and come back December 18th of 84, alright, and we took these movies with us and I can remember, towards the end, going in there in this closet trying to find a movie and we'd go through there. It's like it got to where we were pulling up movies. Anybody heard of this movie? No, all right, that's what we're watching, I bet.
Speaker 3:I could imagine keeping morale up. Yeah, because a movie only goes to trivia and things like that would be. Yeah.
Speaker 5:Well, a lot of spades, hearts, oh yeah, board games, board games, the other board game? I never did. There was one particular board game. Let me think of this. I can't think of the name of this board game. It's not a board game, it's a peg board game and a lot of submarine guys play it, but I never did learn how to play it.
Speaker 2:It's kind of like backgammon.
Speaker 5:Backgammon yeah, is that it? It's a card game. You play with cards and you have these pegs. You move around this board, you go down and start it. It's like you come down and start it when you. It's like you come down, you come back. I don't know, yeah, but well, I just play.
Speaker 3:I play hearts and spades so I bet you got good at it we play a lot of a lot of spades. But we got into rook there for a while when I was over in belgium and we would get so good at it we would have to play bad to try to win. Yeah, you know. You know exactly what I'm talking about you like I know that he's got, you know, the ace, and I'm going to do this to sandbag just uh, just to try to thought, because we got, that's what you did in the garden you know, you're just like.
Speaker 5:I see you go back so we, we, we played.
Speaker 3:It was an odd combination, but it was rook and margarita night oh yeah it usually ended up in some kind of weird fight, but it's okay. I mean, it just happens sometimes.
Speaker 5:That's the way it has to be, so well enough subbed though see, once any warship gets 10 miles from land, you can gamble anything you want.
Speaker 2:I guess that's yeah international, international.
Speaker 5:So so every Saturday night it's pizza casino night. Yeah, keeps the there's your morale right there every.
Speaker 4:Saturday night pizza, unless you're losing yeah and that captain didn't care.
Speaker 3:He's playing right with him, I'm sure. Yeah, what favorite porch ever pulled in?
Speaker 5:Well, I've only been to so many.
Speaker 3:That's a short list, because they probably didn't pull in a lot, did they? No, they didn't. Can't give away them secrets.
Speaker 5:The only foreign port I've ever been to is Holy Lock, Scotland.
Speaker 2:And I would love to go to Scotland.
Speaker 5:Was it just so?
Speaker 3:remote, that it was easily you know, because I don't know about that, it's not pulling into.
Speaker 5:Well, there was a well, and then I've been to St Croix, Virgin Islands yeah, that had to be.
Speaker 3:See, it's weird. That's the difference between Y'all just do your thing and come back in.
Speaker 5:that's about it, but a lot of swim calls in the bahamas though. Yeah, we would. We would be out, get ready to be out, do our thing, ready to come back in the bahamas, and we would pop up and and uh, still beaches open. Take the barbecue grill, topside grill, hamburger, hot dogs, swim around and come back. You know, could you be out to sea for three months? Come back in sunburn.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's awesome, right that's awesome.
Speaker 3:It wouldn't take long, would it really? No, no.
Speaker 5:To come out there and pale. You go out there and swim in the ocean for a little bit. You can get a little rigged and you get red. I bet that's.
Speaker 3:Man, yeah, so then you transitioned, you got out and went into the Bureau of Prisons. Yes, I did Any crazy stories in there, too many I've heard. Listen, I've got some Marine buddies that were over there, you probably know. And I'm like man, there's some crazy stuff, I know. I won't mention them off air.
Speaker 2:Do you spend all that time at Manchester prison, all that time at Manchester?
Speaker 5:it's not a maximum, it's a high medium, yeah, but they have some bad cats that yeah they'll be guys at a beast I mean at a penitentiary level and they will get to where they will come, to Manchester to transition into a lesser security and a lot of those guys can't handle that. They'll go in and pop somebody in the jaw just to go back to the penitentiary. They'd rather be in the penitentiary.
Speaker 4:Too much freedom, yeah, too much freedom. Too many snitches, oh yeah, people you know there's a difference between an inmate and a convict. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 5:Okay, an inmate don't know how to do his time. He's usually a short-timer doing 18 months. A convict knows how to do his time All right, and he's usually doing a lot of it.
Speaker 2:I would imagine the guys that know that they're not getting out are the ones that you'd have to worry about the most, or maybe on the butt.
Speaker 3:I think they don't want any problems with COs. No, they don't. But, they're not going to take much crap off those inmates. No, they're not. No, they're not Because they don't want. If an inmate's in there acting silly, they're going to try to shut that down because it's you know, because you got these young bucks doing 18 months.
Speaker 5:They don't give a rat if they're locked down or not. These older guys look man, we, they try to. They can they control the younger guys? Listen, we want to stay up. We don't want to have to eat no cheese sandwiches. And another thing is, if you're locked down, you can't gamble. That's a big thing. So you're, you're strong, arming. People want to keep everything quiet. So you can gamble, you can go to the rec, you can work out, you can go eat a regular meal, not eat a cheese sandwich in your cell and have to jackhammer your crap out. But yeah, as I say, cheese sandwiches. Yeah, they stopped up, stop yeah, yeah, it's a was the game, you know the.
Speaker 3:Was that a problem in there? And oh yeah, I mean, you had different, different, uh, folks that ran different blocks. Was that how it went you?
Speaker 5:got. You got the keys to the car, whatever you call it, every other block. But I know. I was making my rounds one night I said, okay, I saw some and things must be okay, can't be that bad. I walked up to a cell and I saw let me see if I can get the who was doing what? First, here I saw a white supremacist getting a tattoo from a black guy. Hmm, so okay. So I was like all right, that's all right, I just walked off. Okay, I said never mind. Never mind, a black guy tattooing a white supremacist.
Speaker 5:Okay, that's not okay. If that's that's okay, I can handle that. You know tattooing it right, it's wrong, you know okay, but the whole, there's a concept being together, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I asked a guy, that's because a guy worked for me. I said the next day or two. I said hey, man, what was up with that? He said well, the dude can draw, he's good, all right so they'll take the talent over.
Speaker 3:They'll take the talent right. Right, it's. The politics in there is probably really different. Yes, it is, huh, it's 20 years from 20.
Speaker 5:20 years.
Speaker 2:So I would say you saw a big mix. Do you see Aryan Brotherhood and what is the big?
Speaker 5:Every one.
Speaker 2:Let me put it this way.
Speaker 5:Let me put it this way you know who the Crips, the Bloods and say the Latin Kings, the Bureau of Prisons, the Latin Kings, the Crips and the Bloods, they're not even on the chart. They don't even look at those guys they're. They're so far down the list, okay, they're at the bottom of the list, okay. So if you think Crips and Bloods and Latin Kings are bad, the BOPs are not. They're Sunday school teachers.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh they get a lot of publicity, I guess outside, yeah, yeah, be the street gangs. They get a lot of publicity, I guess outside, yeah, the street gangs.
Speaker 5:Now there's bigger dogs than those guys Wow. Like I say, you've got the black gangster disciples and you've got your Serranos out of California. The Latin Kings Mexican Mafia.
Speaker 2:MS-13. Ms-13.
Speaker 5:MS-13s, those guys.
Speaker 2:yeah, I ran into so it was one day we got a call of something. It was coming off the Greyhound and I just went through that clandestine class with that in-service and all that. And there's a black guy got off the bus and I was just sitting there talking to him. I mean he wouldn't part of the call and I just happened to look down and see his tattoos.
Speaker 4:yeah, and I said oh and I said hey, man how long you been part of the disciples.
Speaker 2:He's like I don't know what you're talking about, like he just completely shut me out, walked away man do you enjoy do you enjoy the obviously 20 years?
Speaker 5:yeah, I mean it a lot, of, a lot of interesting. I've had a lot of interesting conversation with inmates. Okay, yeah, I mean 20 years I've had. I mean, they're listen, they're just one guy. He is from cuba. He was there when I hired him. He was there when I retired, wow, and the only reason he was here is just from illegal entry from cuba. They couldn't send him back. So you can't send him back. They got to keep him locked up, alright, because a lot of these guys are the Mario Cubans, if you want to talk about that. Mario.
Speaker 5:Cubans are the Fidel Castro's worst of the worst of his inmates. So when his prisons were full back in the 80s he put them on boats and told them to go to America and don't come back. He meant that so they would come to America, they would arrest them and send them to Bureau of Prisons. They'd go work in Unicor and make a show and stuff. They loved that. You take a Cuban inmate now, if he's making, if he can make $150 a month in Unicor, well, he can send $100 of that a month to Cuba and his family is living like royalty, wow, on $100 a month. Okay, in Cuba, that's a lot of money, a lot of money, wow. So so their family look up to them. Oh, they're in America working for unicorn in prison. They think that's great. $100 a month, that's great, bringing 100 bucks a month.
Speaker 3:That's a different world, different world. They'd rather be incarcerated. They would.
Speaker 5:If you was to take some of these Cubans and throw them out the front door, that'd beat you back to the inside defense. Yeah, All right, Sure would that would be.
Speaker 2:You know it would be interesting to interview, like a lot of those guys I to interview a lot of those guys. I know, a lot of them wouldn't talk to you, but it would be cool to hear the stories that they've got.
Speaker 3:I bet some of us, when you have a guy, that's they're not all. They're all innocent, aren't they? Not all of them, but you've heard some heartbreaking stuff, I'm sure.
Speaker 4:Well.
Speaker 5:I tell you I've heard some heartbreaking stuff, I'm sure. Well, I'll tell you I've heard some. Well, there was this truck driver, I think he was in Knoxville, Tennessee. He would go to Texas and bring back some green stuff and call him a mule and he had been doing just small amounts over the years as a truck driver, just to help put his kids through college, just to help things, not a whole lot. His wife had a job, he had a job as a truck driver and then his wife was talking one night over eating a meal and says honey, he said I need to do one more run. One more run, I'm done, I'll quit. That's the one that always gets you. That's when he got.
Speaker 3:He got caught yeah, yeah, amazing sad because she stopped.
Speaker 2:Don't know when to stop, yeah yeah, and now I mean, you look at stuff like that. Now that's like a slap on the wrist for marijuana. You know it's not better.
Speaker 3:I've seen 1,300 pounds in a truck before. It's different. It's got a different smell than you. I was like this don't smell like what I'm eating. It's packed in grease and stuff like that. I was like this.
Speaker 5:So that's it, it's interesting.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've seen some cool stuff on the side of the road too, you're like oh my gosh, it's a.
Speaker 2:It's a different mentality you got to have being on the the inside working corrections it has to be, because you know on our side of it and I I got a little bit of a taste of it when I was working for buddy and them doing that on the inside, seeing the inside and that.
Speaker 2:But you know, it's one thing that we, you know we deal with the crime we deal with you know everything up to that, and it's a different mentality that we have to have because it's, you know, we're not, we're right, they're wrong we're putting them in prison, yeah and then we're dropping them off, but as a correction officer, you're in there with them every day every day, so it's like you can't so we had that freedom. We skin them, we catch them it's almost like being a parent to you.
Speaker 3:You are but we go yeah we got a lot more freedom.
Speaker 3:That's always what scared me, because I had some interviews. I was about to go over to, you know, to interview at the prison. I had buddies over there at Manchester and I was like this would be a good job and it would have been, but then I got a taste of like the police officer side of it. You're like man, I got a lot of freedom. I can move home, you're right, I can. I can go over here and stop a car or I can go run this domestic and and then then I go hang out with the PD for a minute or not to deal with anybody mom pop shop talking to gossip yes exactly be at the barbershop, whatever totally different job, totally but yet having to keep the law and order.
Speaker 3:You did it inside there. We tried to do it. You know we failed a lot, but we would have you know we would do our training.
Speaker 5:We've had state police come in and do our training, update us on what's going on with the whatever, what's going on on the street these days. And they said there's no way. There's no way they would give up their gun to go work inside that fence.
Speaker 2:No way. No, I couldn't do it, I don't think not. I mean, unless you were driving like the perimeter truck, then you're just chasing deer.
Speaker 3:I work in a school that's got like a hundred acres and sometimes I feel like I'm in prison however, I can get in that car and go right across the road to the you know the Mexican restaurant or go to the CVS. It's real close to me and I'm like this is easy but there's a fence around it and you're like, oh my gosh, I feel weird, even though I have 100% freedom.
Speaker 2:It's just different you know, working with those type of guys, I feel like you would always kind of be on eggshells a little bit.
Speaker 1:You got to do your job, but you say the wrong thing to the wrong person.
Speaker 5:Oh, they try to file a complaint. Yeah, to shank you. You got to, as I say, you got to have communication skills.
Speaker 4:All right, yeah, you know what.
Speaker 5:Everybody's pretty much watched a movie, the Green Mile, oh yeah. I love it Okay how Tom Hanks I think with the okay, you got the other little guy. That was a little ass, you know what I mean Okay, it's just like that. You know what I mean. You got some that just can't communicate. You got some that can you know. He can tell an inmate to stand on his head and he'll stand on his head.
Speaker 2:That's just the way they are. It's all about respect, it is.
Speaker 5:You got to give respect. To give respect, I've tried to work, my career.
Speaker 2:I mean some people you just can't give respect because they don't let you.
Speaker 5:Right.
Speaker 2:But I mean, I've always tried to work my career, that I'm going to give you as much respect as you give me.
Speaker 4:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:And then we'll go from there. True, yeah, but some people just don't.
Speaker 5:I mean, I've given them mates. I'm 2 o'clock in the morning and they'll be out there shoveling snow. And I've walked by a group of them and I've come back and said look fellas, someone needs to eat a fireball. Alright, boss, I got it, boss somebody's been drinking a little hooch before they come out and shovel snow.
Speaker 2:I've done that a couple of times. Some things I mean overlook some things.
Speaker 3:It ain't worth it well, this has been a fun interview. I've learned a lot tonight.
Speaker 2:I have too. This has been great. I think it might be. This is the only person I've ever talked to that's ever been on a submarine.
Speaker 5:Yeah, it's cool. There's only, there's only a few of us.
Speaker 3:I can only imagine a few of us thank you for your service. I appreciate it.
Speaker 5:You're very welcome and I honestly enjoyed the submarine service very much.
Speaker 3:I'm glad.
Speaker 2:If you had the chance if you were standing there. The choice was standing before you. Would you go back and do it all over again? Yes, I would.
Speaker 5:That's awesome. That says a lot.
Speaker 4:That says a lot.
Speaker 5:It was challenging, very challenging, because, listen, when I was going to school down at Clay County, I was not a the best student, all right. I was like whatever what time we get a class, I need a leave early myself.
Speaker 5:Cut out myself here in a minute yeah, so joining the Navy helped me, because before the Navy you would not catch me in the library at all. I'm not going to that library. Then, after I joined the Navy, I found myself looking at a lot of books, knowing a lot of tech manuals. I did more reading and tech manual my first two years in Navin. I did all of high school. I was like, oh my God, all right, yeah, all right. So I learned I had to learn real quick how to read tech meals, do a lot of reading, how to do research, just like you would back in the library doing research. It's the same thing and the same thing. Working with the Bureau of Prisons as a lieutenant, you're doing audits all the time. You're doing what we call perpetual audits constantly, constantly going over program policies and procedures to make sure everything's correct. You know right, and so I was always doing that stuff and so you know, yeah, it takes me back to my days.
Speaker 5:Okay, what research papers I did during high school. Okay, so it takes me back to my days, okay, what research papers I did during high school. Okay, so it takes you back to those basics and if you need those basics or research paperwork to make it as to doing your audits and things of that nature, yeah, oh, I know Would have took it a lot more seriously.
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah, but you do remember things. You're like oh yeah, I was like wow, why am I in this typing class learning now just that little stuff like that? I was like oh my gosh when you're writing reports. They probably called it something different when you was in, but it was typing my 35 words a minute at least I had that remember
Speaker 5:those home keys 35 words and five mistakes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but I mean just little things like that. You're like oh my gosh, thank you, Ms Wittenback, for teaching me how to do that way back in seventh grade or whatever that was. It's just different how that stuff. I was like I'll never have to write a paper, paper, I'm going to this, and then, I don't you know, go to the police department. That's all you do is type reports.
Speaker 2:I will say I learned more at KCC about typing reports. My report type is a whole lot different than it was when I was at the PD now yeah, it's well you learn the federal way to yeah it all federal.
Speaker 3:I was impressed when I did a case that got adopted by the ATF. They bullet point a lot more things in their cases. Oh yeah, and it reads a whole lot more, and you probably did the same thing.
Speaker 2:After doing reports there, I looked back at some of the old PD reports.
Speaker 3:I was writing like a third grade level.
Speaker 4:It looks like just special ed.
Speaker 3:But then when you learn you're, you're like, oh, that's how you should write a paper you're like or a you know report. Yeah, it makes it makes everybody's job easier to read it, from the, from the lawyers to the to jurors, to whoever sees that you know on up the ladder, to when it got to the, to the you know the correction site. Being able to see that's what that guy did then Makes more sense From wrecks and all that stuff. But thank you again for your time.
Speaker 5:This has been a lot of fun. Thanks for inviting me.
Speaker 2:Anytime, we'll have you back on.
Speaker 5:I'll come back on with you Any of your buddies?
Speaker 2:Yes, I do.
Speaker 5:If they want to have a reunion, we'll set them up around here.
Speaker 2:Thank you again. Any of your buddies? Yes, I do. If they want to have a reunion, we'll set them up around here, that'd be perfect.
Speaker 3:Thank you again, we enjoyed it.
Speaker 5:Well, there's a fellow that lives here in town that I served with my first submarine. He retired 22 years and he lives here in London.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if he wants to. Not everybody wants to sit and blab with us.
Speaker 5:Oh, you'll be here all night long.
Speaker 2:That's fine with us. He'll take the show over. That's fine with us. Nobody wants to hear us talk.
Speaker 5:He has plenty of submarine stories.
Speaker 3:We'll get him on here. You check to see if he's ready. We'll have him on, oh he'll be ready.
Speaker 5:I say you want to do a podcast? He'll say oh, fuck off, all right.
Speaker 3:You two just take over, we'll just sit back and laugh.
Speaker 5:All right, this guy's job in the navy, in the submarine, his job was to operate some of that spy equipment.
Speaker 3:Oh, that'd be interesting yeah, okay, check with him. Let's get this in schedule.
Speaker 2:Yes, sounds great, sounds good, all right, well, that sounds like something interesting, something to look forward to All right. Thank you again, Paul. You're welcome. All right, guys. We'll catch you on the next one. I did the pre-sign.